Flushing or not?

[vclavin]

Donor age - strickly depends on the individual. We have one that was 9 years old - flushed 5 times then bred & calved natural - and immediately went back into flush program. She just gave 24 good embryos and will be flushed 1 more time before getting bred for natural calf. She only averaged 6 on the first 3 flushes - probably due to our unusual hot/dry summer (for NY). But, she averaged 19 the first year.
So, age may not matter.
I do not believe in flushing virgin heifers. She may look good, have great EPD's & DNA, but may NEVER reproduce herself.
What cow you flush, depends on your goals. My goal is to make money selling embryos, so the cow must be nationally acceptable. (performance - pedigree)
Picture is "too big", and I don't have time to mess with it - if you want to see "the old lady", go to:
http://www.simmevalley.com/SaleCattle.htm scroll down under the "show string", it is B&B Miss Power Lass.

Thanks..nice ladies. I have a 10 year old cow that still breeds on time and has beautiful calves. She is bred for 2011 ..I may be wise to have her flushed.
I know nothing about flushing a cow...how often do you flush them? Is it necessary to let them have a natural calf each year? Do you keep all the embryos... orjust the #1's?
Thanks Jeanne
Valerie

 

[Baldie Maker]

It isn't necessary for the cow to have a natural calf every year. I've been told although I'm sure it's not true for all that you, freeze the ones, implant the twos, and thrash the threes.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Some people believe they should only flush 1 time than breed for natural calf, but my cows are flushed every 60 days, 5 times then rebred for a natural calf. So, basically, she is flushed 1 year, & carries her own calf 1 year. Our cows are flushed in coop with Hudson Pines Farm. They keep the cows there & do all the flushing (basically, they lease the cows from us). The embryologist microscopes the embryos & determines if they are good enough for fresh implants or for freezing. I think the national average is about 5 good embryos.
It sounds like you are wanting to flush, just to flush. WHY do you want to flush? The only reason a cow should be flushed is because she is SUPERIOR and her genetics should be increased for improving your own herd or for a sale item. And, if you want to sell embryos, they have to be more than just something in your herd that you like.
I'll try the pic again:

 

[vclavin]

Jeanne,
Not just to flush.. but have been waiting to make the right decision. We've culled heavily and now I have older cows that have given me heifers and bulls that are noticed by others .. but that doesn;t mean they are "good enough" to have their genetics retained or sold as embryos. When EPD's and actual dna and phenotype match data taken.. and all appears superior .. then I figure it is time. I really just needed to know the standards and some ins and outs of flushing.
I understand that the difference between 1 and 2 embryos is number of cells. does that mean 2's are inferior as they are behind in growth? or just the time frame of getting fertilized?
Thanks for giving more info.
Valerie

If i"m going to flush a female.. I intend to make it count.

 

[whitecow]

Each embryo is evaluated maturity (stage) and quality (grade). An "ideal" embryo on day 7 is a blastocyst with a quality grade of 1, or 7-1. But successful preganacies can result from stage 4-8 and from grade 1-3 if the embryos are matched to heats of the recipients. Typically, 1's and 2's can be frozen but 3's are only transferred fresh. So folks won't use 3's but we have had great luck with them transferred fresh (~60% pregnancy rate). We run about 55% preg rate with frozen embryos.

 

[vclavin]

Each embryo is evaluated maturity (stage) and quality (grade). An "ideal" embryo on day 7 is a blastocyst with a quality grade of 1, or 7-1. But successful preganacies can result from stage 4-8 and from grade 1-3 if the embryos are matched to heats of the recipients. Typically, 1's and 2's can be frozen but 3's are only transferred fresh. So folks won't use 3's but we have had great luck with them transferred fresh (~60% pregnancy rate). We run about 55% preg rate with frozen embryos.

Thanks White cow.
Valerie

 

[ANAZAZI]

The only cows that should be flushed are the ones good enough to keep bulls from, and from which tou can retain most all heifers. These are the cows that meet your criteria to be flushed too; fertile, healthy, productive, good disposition, good conformation and carcass merit.

 

[plumber_greg]

I realize that I know next to nothing about all this, but for my own understanding, when Jeanne talks about selling embryos, do you mean that someone brings a cow over to your place any you put one in it? Or is it a cow already with the embryo safe in it and you sell the cow and calf? If they're frozen, can you ship it across the country and they handle it? Sorry to be dumbed down on this. gs

 

[Idaman]

I realize that I know next to nothing about all this, but for my own understanding, when Jeanne talks about selling embryos, do you mean that someone brings a cow over to your place any you put one in it? Or is it a cow already with the embryo safe in it and you sell the cow and calf? If they're frozen, can you ship it across the country and they handle it? Sorry to be dumbed down on this. gs

Best way to answer is to put it into sequence.

1. You have a donor cow that you would like to flush and do.

2. When the vet flushes the cow he can either implant the embryos(fresh) in a prepared recipient at that time or freeze the embryos.

3. After freezing, the embryos can be shipped, like semen, or just stored for future use.

4. You can sell the frozen embryos or even the fresh ones if you have made arrangements for recipients with the buyer and they may provide the recipients or you can and then sell the buyer the resulting implanted recipient.

5. If you sell frozens then you ship to the buyer and he either stores or implants in his own recipients.

Even though muddy hope this helps.

 

[plumber_greg]

Thank you. gs

 

[vclavin]

Is there any reason to think that a #1 is better quality than a #2 etc. I realize it's about the number of cells.. but does that tell you anything about the future calf it will produce...
Valerie

 

[dun]

Is there any reason to think that a #1 is better quality than a #2 etc. I realize it's about the number of cells.. but does that tell you anything about the future calf it will produce...
Valerie

I thinkit has to do with the probable viability of the embryo

 

[vclavin]

Is there any reason to think that a #1 is better quality than a #2 etc. I realize it's about the number of cells.. but does that tell you anything about the future calf it will produce...
Valerie

I thinkit has to do with the probable viability of the embryo

I see, a #1 would have a better chance of settling than a #2 etc. Thanks Dun
Valerie

 

[showing71]

When we flush, we try and synch about 8 cows along with the donor cow and take everybody up to the embryologist at the same time. We will only freeze the #1 embryos, and we implant the 2's and 3's (3's on the vet's opinion) right away after the flush. It's worked so far, the last flush we did, we had 7 out of the 8 stick. If there's not enough 2's, we will go ahead and implant some 1's.

 

[Dusty]

It is high priced for you guys.. I flush between 3-5 cows at a time, $350 a flush and then $200 to freeze all embryo's. Last flush 5 cows, 1 freeze, 15 straws of semen = $2350 and I got 63 embryo's .... so $37.35 an embryo as i figure it..

I flush to cattle that I think can improve area's in my herd.... More performance, better calving ease, more milk, and then on marketability only top 3% of herd get flushed...

Have a list of over 60 people who ask for bi-monthly embryo list and I do take orders for embyro's by cows but the bulls used are always bulls that work in my program first ....

I figure at $350 and embryo, (which customers think is very very reasonable) I am still making about 10x what I have in them.... Publicly I have sold them for over $1050 a piece... one cow is averaging about $700 on over 35 embryo's sold...

 

[vclavin]

It is high priced for you guys.. I flush between 3-5 cows at a time, $350 a flush and then $200 to freeze all embryo's. Last flush 5 cows, 1 freeze, 15 straws of semen = $2350 and I got 63 embryo's .... so $37.35 an embryo as i figure it..

I flush to cattle that I think can improve area's in my herd.... More performance, better calving ease, more milk, and then on marketability only top 3% of herd get flushed...

Have a list of over 60 people who ask for bi-monthly embryo list and I do take orders for embyro's by cows but the bulls used are always bulls that work in my program first ....

I figure at $350 and embryo, (which customers think is very very reasonable) I am still making about 10x what I have in them.... Publicly I have sold them for over $1050 a piece... one cow is averaging about $700 on over 35 embryo's sold...

Dusty,
What breed are your cows? Just curious. Also, what company are you using to get he girls flushed. I had heard there was a very reasonable place to have this done in Kansas.
Valerie

 

[Dusty]

multiple places in Kansas... Abliene, Baileyville, Manhattan, Clay Center, Salina, Beliot, and I think there is a firm in or around the Scott City area...

I think CCG does the best job in the world .......