Dun got me started on using floating braces a few years ago and have been very happy with them. But I have only used them in line fences. I am wondering if they also work for corners - can I put 1 post in the ground and use 2 floating braces at 90 degrees?
Floating Brace ? Dun??
- Thread starter ChrisB
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I think I know what you mean but does anyone have a picture they might share?
Floating Brace is an option to strengthen a corner,
gate entrance, or other post that could move due to
the load applied. In general, this is an excellent
option for interior fences with limited number of wire
strands. A brace post is connected to the corner
post at (or just below) the top wire with a pin
connection and the other end setting on block on
the ground. The brace should be about 2.5X the
height of the top wire in length. A threaded rod or
double loop of 12.5 gauge wire should be tightened
between the ground end and the bottom of the
corner post.
Here's a link:
http://www.powerflexfenceonline.com/Articles.asp?ID=267
gate entrance, or other post that could move due to
the load applied. In general, this is an excellent
option for interior fences with limited number of wire
strands. A brace post is connected to the corner
post at (or just below) the top wire with a pin
connection and the other end setting on block on
the ground. The brace should be about 2.5X the
height of the top wire in length. A threaded rod or
double loop of 12.5 gauge wire should be tightened
between the ground end and the bottom of the
corner post.
Here's a link:
http://www.powerflexfenceonline.com/Articles.asp?ID=267
Thank you dun.
AndyL
Well-known member
Will this floating brace work on a 6 strand barb wire fence?
pdfangus
Well-known member
I POSTED A LINK TO PHOTOS OF ONE OF MINE IN THE THREAD FENCE REPAIR....
greybeard
Well-known member
Here's my 1st attempt at one of these new fangled things.
Used 3/16 cable for the tension wire on the ratchet, and a chunk of concrete for the "big flat rock".
We'll see how it does when the weather changes and the ground stays wet for several weeks in a row.
Used 3/16 cable for the tension wire on the ratchet, and a chunk of concrete for the "big flat rock".
We'll see how it does when the weather changes and the ground stays wet for several weeks in a row.
If what the end is floating on is big enough the wet ground won;t make a difference. If it hapens to sink in a bit, crank on the rathet and retighten itgreybeard":3kh3gn18 said:Here's my 1st attempt at one of these new fangled things.
Used 3/16 cable for the tension wire on the ratchet, and a chunk of concrete for the "big flat rock".
We'll see how it does when the weather changes and the ground stays wet for several weeks in a row.
pdfangus
Well-known member
actually the post is more likely to sag in the direction of the gate hanging on it.
greybeard
Well-known member
I guess the photo is a little misleading. I didn't put the brace in for the purpose of supporting the closed gate, but it kinda looks it I reckon.
That is the gate into my pen tho and 95% of the year, that gate will be swung full open and tied back to the left, not closed. I try to leave my pen and such open so cows can wander in and out of them on their own--helps them get accustomed to being in there--I think.
I (and my elbows and hands) want to thank whoever came up with this and posted it. That 8" x 8' post is $16 here. The treated diagonal 4x4 half of that, but I woulda had to have that 4x4 no matter what kind of brace I used, the ratchet was only $3--- so I saved $13 and I didn't have to dig a 2nd hole!!!
That is the gate into my pen tho and 95% of the year, that gate will be swung full open and tied back to the left, not closed. I try to leave my pen and such open so cows can wander in and out of them on their own--helps them get accustomed to being in there--I think.
I (and my elbows and hands) want to thank whoever came up with this and posted it. That 8" x 8' post is $16 here. The treated diagonal 4x4 half of that, but I woulda had to have that 4x4 no matter what kind of brace I used, the ratchet was only $3--- so I saved $13 and I didn't have to dig a 2nd hole!!!
greybeard
Well-known member
At Least $100!
greybeard
Well-known member
Ok. Having done 4 of these now, on different soil types, I think I understand why the whole thing just doesn't slide out in direction of strain.
Look first at a conventional "H" post setup. We all know, on a good fence, stretched tight, that a single post won't stand up straight for long, unless 1 or 2 things are done. Use a much bigger diameter post and/or bury it much deeper in the ground. It's all about the underground surface area the post encounters should it try to move. The deeper the post is, the more square inches/sq feet of compacted soil it has to overcome in order to move. Same holds true for using a wider post. More square area. Most of us don't like to use a 14" or bigger post and don't like to have to bury that post 5' in the ground, so we just add a second post of the same diameter and bury it about the same depth as the opposite post. This in effect, doubles the surface area underground, meaning the strain is absorbed by the additional surface area presented to the 2 posts. Pretty basic stuff--been done for centuries no matter which position the horizontal member is installed.
Floating braces are also all about surface area, but with a twist. Angles (geometry) are involved. At first glance it really does appear the whole apparatus would just slide in direction of strain, but that isn't possible without some angles changing in the process.
(The "35 deg" text in the floating brace diagram is in error. It should be somewhere in the 60-70 degree angle--certainly more than 45 degrees)
In the above diagram, you see the comparison of an "H" post setup. The 2 surface areas (cross sections "A" and "B" of the 2 vertical posts) are combined thru use of the horizontal brace to resist the wire strain. Nominally, some resistance is added by the back side of each post's surface should lower part of the back of the posts try to move to the right. This tries to happen when you have a soft top few inches, a hard dry area a little further down, then a soggy or soft bottom substrate. The posts want to 'pivot' about half way down--but can't.
In the floating brace, it also uses surface area. The single vertical post (with it's cross section "A") provides the same front and back surface area as a single post in the "H" setup. The diagonal brace rests on a flat support--rock, board, steel plate. The surface area of this support is approximately that of the second vertical post in the "H" design. It's these combined cross sections "A" and "B" surface areas that resist the strain. So why doesn't the whole thing slide in direction of strain?
It can't, without the angles of the diagonal brace changing. The only way the angles can change, is if the support (rock) is pushed down into the ground, or if the bottom end of the diagonal post moves upward. Hopefully, the support rock has enough cross section to resist being pushed down, and that just leaves the problem of the diagonal moving upward. It cannot, as Dun stated, due to the ratchet block and wire locking it securely to the bottom of the big vertical post. In soggy ground, just use a rock with a bigger cross section area.
Another question that popped up in my mind was "Why does the diagonal brace post need to be so long?"
"Brace needs to have a length equal to the measurement of your top wire to the ground level--doubled".
I found out why. Using a short post (6 1/2 ft) creates a sharp angle--a little less than 45 degrees. When you tighten the ratchet block, the force is much closer to a vertical force than a horizontal force--it tends to push the big vertical post out of the ground. This can really be a problem in regions with a deep frost line, since there is already a significant upward force in winter--no sense helping the frost with it's job. Using a longer diagonal, moves to applied force "closer" to a 90 deg or horizontal force, and won't push the vertical post out of the ground.
In my case, my top wires are around 55" from ground, so that diagonal needs to be about 110" long. That's over 8' long. Hard to find around here, but a treated 4x4 8 or 10 ft long will work.
Anyway, that's my thoughts on 'em and I'm sold on this type corner or end brace. They aren't imo, as visually pleasing as an "H" post setup, but the cows don't care so I won't either. Not having to dig that 2nd big deep hole and not having to handle a 2nd cross tie or utility pole is wonderful!!
Look first at a conventional "H" post setup. We all know, on a good fence, stretched tight, that a single post won't stand up straight for long, unless 1 or 2 things are done. Use a much bigger diameter post and/or bury it much deeper in the ground. It's all about the underground surface area the post encounters should it try to move. The deeper the post is, the more square inches/sq feet of compacted soil it has to overcome in order to move. Same holds true for using a wider post. More square area. Most of us don't like to use a 14" or bigger post and don't like to have to bury that post 5' in the ground, so we just add a second post of the same diameter and bury it about the same depth as the opposite post. This in effect, doubles the surface area underground, meaning the strain is absorbed by the additional surface area presented to the 2 posts. Pretty basic stuff--been done for centuries no matter which position the horizontal member is installed.
Floating braces are also all about surface area, but with a twist. Angles (geometry) are involved. At first glance it really does appear the whole apparatus would just slide in direction of strain, but that isn't possible without some angles changing in the process.
(The "35 deg" text in the floating brace diagram is in error. It should be somewhere in the 60-70 degree angle--certainly more than 45 degrees)
In the above diagram, you see the comparison of an "H" post setup. The 2 surface areas (cross sections "A" and "B" of the 2 vertical posts) are combined thru use of the horizontal brace to resist the wire strain. Nominally, some resistance is added by the back side of each post's surface should lower part of the back of the posts try to move to the right. This tries to happen when you have a soft top few inches, a hard dry area a little further down, then a soggy or soft bottom substrate. The posts want to 'pivot' about half way down--but can't.
In the floating brace, it also uses surface area. The single vertical post (with it's cross section "A") provides the same front and back surface area as a single post in the "H" setup. The diagonal brace rests on a flat support--rock, board, steel plate. The surface area of this support is approximately that of the second vertical post in the "H" design. It's these combined cross sections "A" and "B" surface areas that resist the strain. So why doesn't the whole thing slide in direction of strain?
It can't, without the angles of the diagonal brace changing. The only way the angles can change, is if the support (rock) is pushed down into the ground, or if the bottom end of the diagonal post moves upward. Hopefully, the support rock has enough cross section to resist being pushed down, and that just leaves the problem of the diagonal moving upward. It cannot, as Dun stated, due to the ratchet block and wire locking it securely to the bottom of the big vertical post. In soggy ground, just use a rock with a bigger cross section area.
Another question that popped up in my mind was "Why does the diagonal brace post need to be so long?"
"Brace needs to have a length equal to the measurement of your top wire to the ground level--doubled".
I found out why. Using a short post (6 1/2 ft) creates a sharp angle--a little less than 45 degrees. When you tighten the ratchet block, the force is much closer to a vertical force than a horizontal force--it tends to push the big vertical post out of the ground. This can really be a problem in regions with a deep frost line, since there is already a significant upward force in winter--no sense helping the frost with it's job. Using a longer diagonal, moves to applied force "closer" to a 90 deg or horizontal force, and won't push the vertical post out of the ground.
In my case, my top wires are around 55" from ground, so that diagonal needs to be about 110" long. That's over 8' long. Hard to find around here, but a treated 4x4 8 or 10 ft long will work.
Anyway, that's my thoughts on 'em and I'm sold on this type corner or end brace. They aren't imo, as visually pleasing as an "H" post setup, but the cows don't care so I won't either. Not having to dig that 2nd big deep hole and not having to handle a 2nd cross tie or utility pole is wonderful!!
