ragweed
Well-known member
everyone talks about maternal traits of fleckviehs. but most of the epds doesn't show compared to the black simms. any inputs would be appreciated. thanks
fleck simmentals
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Though I believe EPDs are a good tool, they aren't perfect. I have had this discussion with some Fleckvieh breeders and they acknowledge that very few Fleck bulls have been truly tested against purebred Simmentals in the same herd in order to get contemporary data that can be used in the calculation of EPDs. So, most Flecks have only been compared to other Flecks, rather than purebred Simmental and SimAngus.
So, I wouldn't put much weight in comparing EPDs of Flecks to other Simmentals, though I would use them to compare one Fleck to another Fleck.
So, I wouldn't put much weight in comparing EPDs of Flecks to other Simmentals, though I would use them to compare one Fleck to another Fleck.
Till-Hill
Well-known member
Yes they are, I just looked at a local herd's bull offering. One at 940 ww, couple around 875 and alot more around 650-700. I can do that without the horned/spots/big birthweight/huge frame. Their hybred vigor on a set of black cows sure would be fun but I think I'd rather buy a female to use than a herdbull that's fleckvieh at this point.dun":ss3h63d1 said:
We used on particular Fleckvieh bull a lot on a commercial cow. Found his BW and calving ease to be about what we had expected. I know he has thrown some really powerfull daughters that make great cows. I've only got 1 unit of him left in the tank and he isn;t available anymore so I'm trying to decide if I want to breed him to one of his daughters.Till-Hill":i86oapxn said:
Ohrmundt Simmentals
Well-known member
UG":wku25m4m said:
I tihnk this probalby pretty true. I used a Fleck bull the other year who was a calving ease bull ( for fleck )but his epd's compared to good CE Black or Red sim's didn't stack real well. CE wise the calves calved out just fine no issues and were the size I like see out of a bull with a lower BW.
I would actually like to see more black and red sim breeders using flecks for the good traits they have and for more outcross pedigree. I wouldn't mind seeing a little more chrome to but that's just me.
ragweed
Well-known member
considering a fleck bull on black simms for some baldies with power. any opinions on this? looking at epds kinda thru me but looking to keep the better females and looking at api they wernt real impressive on the fleck. guess it doesnt really matter if im keeping though. thanks
Ohrmundt Simmentals
Well-known member
Should make for a good combination. Hopefully you get the best of both worlds. We used a fleck on red Shear Force daughter and on a Dream On granddaughter. Got 2 pretty decent bull calves. The Fleck bull we used isn't know for growth. So we weren't expecting for them to break the scales but their turning out pretty good.
insurman
Well-known member
ragweed":1q7awurl said:
I am considering a fleck bull on a couple of red white faced Simbrahs. Came across a site of a guy who had some real nice bulls with very acceptable BW to YW EPD's and a great API and TI, actually some of the best fleck EPD's I have seen...and they were polled(at least some of them). Would prob make some real nice 3/4's.
http://smfleckvieh.com/
Sorry, I wasn't clear enough in my previous post. Yes Fleckvieh EPDs are calculated with purebred Simmental, SimAngus, etc. What makes EPDs work is when you have highly used AI bulls with calves in many herds. The performance of the progeny of the AI bull(s) can be compared to other sires (i.e. calving ease, weaning weight, marbling, etc.) and from that EPDs are generated. For example if a highly used AI sire's calves on average weigh 1 pound more at birth than the average of their contemporaries, chances are the AI sires BW EPD is going to be above breed average, by around 1 pound, assuming the contemporaries on average have BW EPDs of around breed average (I am being very simplistic here; the calculations of EPDs are much more involved than my basic example).
The majority of registered Simmentals and SimAngus are related somewhat closely to at least some highly used/high accuracy AI sires, which allows for the ASA to more accurately determine these animals EPDs. However, it is very difficult to find a Fleckvieh bull that has been used extensively in the country in herds other than other Fleck herds. To really get Fleck EPDs more in line (more accurate) to Simmental, some of the more highly influential Fleck bulls need to be used by other Simmental breeders, and the data (i.e. BW, WW, ultrasound scan data, etc.) needs to then be turned into ASA so that they can then determine how does a particular Fleck bull's progeny compare to the progeny of highly accurate Simmental bulls.
The majority of registered Simmentals and SimAngus are related somewhat closely to at least some highly used/high accuracy AI sires, which allows for the ASA to more accurately determine these animals EPDs. However, it is very difficult to find a Fleckvieh bull that has been used extensively in the country in herds other than other Fleck herds. To really get Fleck EPDs more in line (more accurate) to Simmental, some of the more highly influential Fleck bulls need to be used by other Simmental breeders, and the data (i.e. BW, WW, ultrasound scan data, etc.) needs to then be turned into ASA so that they can then determine how does a particular Fleck bull's progeny compare to the progeny of highly accurate Simmental bulls.
cbcr
Well-known member
UG
I think that the EPD situation is misleading for many to understand. Simmental, Gelbvieh, Red Angus, Limousin, Maine Anjou and Chianina are all having their evaluations performed by the Simmental Association.
With that said, the ASA evaluations is supposed to be a multi-breed evaluation meaning that you should be able to directly compare the EPD of any of these breeds or crosses of bulls to each other equally only on the Simmental Evaluation.
Another part of the confusion is that these EPD's still are not comparable to Angus, so a producer will still have to give very strong consideration to what breed or combination of breeds his cows are.
As an example the AAR TEN X with ASA has a CED of +17.1 BW -2.9 but with Angus his CED is +8 and BW +.1
The Fleckvieh are really some nice animals both the dairy Fleckvieh and the beef Fleckvieh's.
Just remember EPDs are a tool.
I think that the EPD situation is misleading for many to understand. Simmental, Gelbvieh, Red Angus, Limousin, Maine Anjou and Chianina are all having their evaluations performed by the Simmental Association.
With that said, the ASA evaluations is supposed to be a multi-breed evaluation meaning that you should be able to directly compare the EPD of any of these breeds or crosses of bulls to each other equally only on the Simmental Evaluation.
Another part of the confusion is that these EPD's still are not comparable to Angus, so a producer will still have to give very strong consideration to what breed or combination of breeds his cows are.
As an example the AAR TEN X with ASA has a CED of +17.1 BW -2.9 but with Angus his CED is +8 and BW +.1
The Fleckvieh are really some nice animals both the dairy Fleckvieh and the beef Fleckvieh's.
Just remember EPDs are a tool.
Yes cbcr,
I agree that the Flecks are nice animals; both for dairy and beef. There are probably a lot of grass based dairies that would benefit greatly by adding a little Fleck into their milking herds. A side benefit for these dairies is that the unwanted bull calves will likely be heavier muscled and sell better at the local sale barn as feeders than purebred Holsteins, Jerseys, etc.
My understanding is that the American Simmental Association is creating EPDs for several bulls as you indicated, including Simmental, Maine-Anjou, Red Angus, Gelbvieh, and maybe even the Canadian Angus Association, though I'm not sure about this one. However, currently only the Simmental, Gelbvieh, and Red Angus are on the same base, and thus can be compared directly to each other. You may want to check with ASA because I believe that there are a few of the EPDs (including stayability) which are still not comparable between these breeds.
Finally cbcr, I agree that EPDs are just tools and shouldn't be the only consideration given when making breeding and selection decisions. EPDs are good tools but they aren't perfect.
I agree that the Flecks are nice animals; both for dairy and beef. There are probably a lot of grass based dairies that would benefit greatly by adding a little Fleck into their milking herds. A side benefit for these dairies is that the unwanted bull calves will likely be heavier muscled and sell better at the local sale barn as feeders than purebred Holsteins, Jerseys, etc.
My understanding is that the American Simmental Association is creating EPDs for several bulls as you indicated, including Simmental, Maine-Anjou, Red Angus, Gelbvieh, and maybe even the Canadian Angus Association, though I'm not sure about this one. However, currently only the Simmental, Gelbvieh, and Red Angus are on the same base, and thus can be compared directly to each other. You may want to check with ASA because I believe that there are a few of the EPDs (including stayability) which are still not comparable between these breeds.
Finally cbcr, I agree that EPDs are just tools and shouldn't be the only consideration given when making breeding and selection decisions. EPDs are good tools but they aren't perfect.
cbcr
Well-known member
While the Fleckvieh is basically a dual purpose animal there seems to be a more beef Fleckvieh and then a Dairy Fleckvieh. Some of the Fleckvieh bulls that are promoted more for the dairy industry have a 3 - 10 % Red Holstein or a low percentage of Montbeliarde.
We have the Composite Dairy Cattle Registry as well as the Composite Beef Cattle Registry and we estimate that there are somewhere around 25 - 30,000 Fleckvieh dairy animals in North America, purebreds and crossbreds.
The Fleckvieh's are milking just as well as the Holstein, but the baby calves are worth more and if a Fleckvieh cow has to be culled she brings more money as well. The biggest reason dairymen are using Fleckvieh and Montbeliarde is because the Holstein cows are too frail, not breeding back, feet and leg problems.
We have the Composite Dairy Cattle Registry as well as the Composite Beef Cattle Registry and we estimate that there are somewhere around 25 - 30,000 Fleckvieh dairy animals in North America, purebreds and crossbreds.
The Fleckvieh's are milking just as well as the Holstein, but the baby calves are worth more and if a Fleckvieh cow has to be culled she brings more money as well. The biggest reason dairymen are using Fleckvieh and Montbeliarde is because the Holstein cows are too frail, not breeding back, feet and leg problems.
