What assumptions are being made?
I am speaking from experience.
I am speaking from experience.
Last edited:
Feeder futures
- Thread starter kenny thomas
- Start date
Help Support CattleToday:
chevytaHOE5674
Well-known member
Doesn't really matter if you run 1 cow or 100 a tight calving window is something to work towards. Cull the late bred and opens, keep early calves, retain heifers from early calvers. If possible you can easily sync them for the bull.
Like just about anything cattle related it doesn't happen overnight. But in time you can tighten things up and sell decent sized lots of calves.
chevytaHOE5674
Well-known member
I'd need much more than a promise. I'd need a good contract that would hold up in court if needed.
Ky hills
Well-known member
Here in KY, the buyers want black or BWF calves with some frame. In other words they want growth potential in the calves.
For the number 1's market toppers, it's always a large number group of good framey and right conditioned calves that sell the best.
They can't be too fat or too thin. They have to be healthy looking but not be fat, they want to put weight in them not buy it. They need to be weaned, vaccinated, dehorned, steers, heifers have to be guaranteed open.
You mention 900-1000 pound cows or somewhere thereabouts, but to get the calves the buyers want here they should be bigger framed calves than those cows will have.
The smaller framed calves finish out too small, for desired carcass size.
We are currently trying to tighten back up our calving time.
We sold a group of 5 black and BWF heifers a few weeks ago they brought $2.70 per pound which was real good.
The highest selling similar heifer calves that day were $2.75 and that was a much larger group.
We sold some singles that were several cents less than our 5, and a red white face heifer similar weight and quality to the 5 brought .40 cents per pound less than the 5. That's a significant difference and it costs the same to raise them so uniform size and color is important when marketing for best prices.
Another example we sold an odd steer calf yesterday, weaned vaccinations, solid black but he was small framed out of a Belted Galloway cow and kind of longer curly haired he weighed 475 brought $1.70. You can't get ahead of the buyers, they are experienced and easily identify what they want vs what looks different or what the deem will perform differently.
For the number 1's market toppers, it's always a large number group of good framey and right conditioned calves that sell the best.
They can't be too fat or too thin. They have to be healthy looking but not be fat, they want to put weight in them not buy it. They need to be weaned, vaccinated, dehorned, steers, heifers have to be guaranteed open.
You mention 900-1000 pound cows or somewhere thereabouts, but to get the calves the buyers want here they should be bigger framed calves than those cows will have.
The smaller framed calves finish out too small, for desired carcass size.
We are currently trying to tighten back up our calving time.
We sold a group of 5 black and BWF heifers a few weeks ago they brought $2.70 per pound which was real good.
The highest selling similar heifer calves that day were $2.75 and that was a much larger group.
We sold some singles that were several cents less than our 5, and a red white face heifer similar weight and quality to the 5 brought .40 cents per pound less than the 5. That's a significant difference and it costs the same to raise them so uniform size and color is important when marketing for best prices.
Another example we sold an odd steer calf yesterday, weaned vaccinations, solid black but he was small framed out of a Belted Galloway cow and kind of longer curly haired he weighed 475 brought $1.70. You can't get ahead of the buyers, they are experienced and easily identify what they want vs what looks different or what the deem will perform differently.
rocfarm
Well-known member
I already told the Wagyu guy that if we did it I'd only want the bull out there from Dec 1 to Jan 1 each year for just that purpose. Also, the Wagyu X heifers aren't suitable mothers, so I'm thinking having a lot of 10 calves to sell back into this program should be a pretty good start.
And everyone in this thread is telling me to have a 'program'. This is a program—breeding, calving, vaccinations, selling dates, and marketing strategy are all a part of it. It seems like most people just don't like the Wagyu aspect of it.
I agree on the calving window in principle. But when you have a small herd and are not there constantly, it's hard to split them into groups. We always have to think of redundancy on water (multiple well-fed water troughs + a stock tank with water), grass (always at least 1 month more than they need), mineral (extra out), salt (I mix 100 lbs of rock salt with 50Lbs of mineral), etc., and don't chance any stressful situations where they'd get restless. Pulling the bull away from his herd and leaving him in another pasture with maybe just a steer when I can't keep a constant eye on him seems dangerous to me.
So, this has led to the problem (I think, but I only preg test with serum, so not sure of due date) of one or more of my cows breeding back early this past year because I didn't pull the bull. This will open up that calving window (unless they all move up a month). If I lived on my land I'd probably try to do a 45 day calving window and use a cull system much like you just described for any cows/heifers that don't stick to the program. I would note that, after a drought destocking, you pretty much have to retain all your heifers (if you don't want to buy replacements), though, so can't be picky on the calving dates. Fortunately, the heifers I'm breeding this year were the first two calves born last fall.
Also, I noticed Beaver County Stockyards will group everyone's like calves together and sell them in lots. Was wondering if that kind of thing would come to central Texas soon. I'd be interested in trying that service, but haven't seen it at Gatesville, San Saba, Comanche, Hamilton, etc. yet.
rocfarm
Well-known member
If I was reliant on this business, I'd agree. But I think my risk is selling calves at corriente X-type prices at auction, and the benefits are a chance at good money.
I will say this—if I can get number 1 prices for these Wagyu X calves, I'll be very willing to pay some good money for a few quality #1 heifers each year to raise as replacements. I'm thinking buy 2 to 3 head of 250 to 300 lb black angus type cattle or maybe Angus Charolais X (if they are small enough at maturity) each year in December, and breed them the next December when they are good and ready. If I time it to spring El Niño patterns it would be a good way to raise them on the cheap. Three to four years of that and I should basically be running the type of 'program'/'right' kind of cattle to get #1 prices even if I have to switch back to using my own bull.
chevytaHOE5674
Well-known member
Sounds like you need infrastructure improvements then.
If you don't have a secure place to keep a bull separate from cows that's a problem.
If you don't have a secure place to keep a bull separate from cows that's a problem.
rocfarm
Well-known member
I do get that. I watched the Beaver County Stockyards Special Cow Auction. The message was loud and clear that, I you want to follow the buyers' program, you need 1200 to 1300 lb angus or Angus X mommas and a 1800 to 2000 lb bull (at least when it's mature).
Maybe I am not being realistic, but I'd like to figure out how to get #1 prices out of 1000 lb cows and a 1600 lb bull.
Or, maybe put a big bull on my smaller cows and see if #1s are possible. Of course, that means you don't breed heifers, at least until you're sure your big bull throws smaller calves.
From this thread and the auction info, though, it seems that's not a realistic goal. And push come to shove, I think I'll stick with a smaller framed, moderate milking cow. I've been convinced that they work better for the small guy over the long term.
In central Texas (if I wasn't cash strapped) I'd espouse moving towards going with Angus, Hereford, or Red Angus bulls. If money's a problem, you take the cows you think will make you the most based on what you have to invest. For the cows, commercial cattle that have good confirmation don't seem to preclude a producer from getting #1 prices from what I could tell, so I think any kind of mix that has Angus, Charolais, Beefmaster, Hereford, or Brangus will work. But I won't do any more Brangus blood. Not worth the temperament issues.
rocfarm
Well-known member
Got 6 paddocks. Fences are OK when we don't get 11 inches of rain in 3 hours like in April (I just spent 40 hours learning how to weld H Braces, clear creek bottom, and build water gaps this last month). But we don't live on our land, which is the main issue.
chevytaHOE5674
Well-known member
I dont live on the majority on my acres and have no problems keeping groups of cows separated or bulls separated from cows at anyplace I own.
rocfarm
Well-known member
So if I lock the bull up in the paddock next to the cows from July to December with one steer to keep him company, a tight, 5 strand barbed wire fence will keep him away from them? I have been led to believe that if they smell a heifer or cow in heat that they'll often push through the fence.
Conversely, if they run with a herd year round that they feel is their own, they don't usually head to the neighbor's paddock.
Is this incorrect?
chevytaHOE5674
Well-known member
I've kept bulls separated from cycling cows with a single hot wire before.
I routinely keep them seperate with 3 or 4 strands of hot wire and don't think twice about it.
If a bull doesn't respect a decent fence then he grows wheels. Life's to short to deal with that nonsense.
I routinely keep them seperate with 3 or 4 strands of hot wire and don't think twice about it.
If a bull doesn't respect a decent fence then he grows wheels. Life's to short to deal with that nonsense.
rocfarm
Well-known member
Got hotwire with solar powered chargers. Also should have a son moving up to do some of the work. Might try it if the Wagyu deal doesn't come through.
Still hoping to rent a bull for two months each year, though. Completely solves the issue. Seen the neighbor's bull. If he broke in and bred some of my cows, I wouldn't be upset. He has a #1 program for sure.
Already had to get rid of one bull because a family member thought he was too friendly. He wasn't mean, just had no flight zone and had good bull dominance behavior. Don't want to switch from my current bull until next year at the soonest. He's not as good, though. My original bull definitely had frame. He also threw 70 lb calves that have averaged about 2.15 lbs/day on grass. I sure miss him!
Ky hills
Well-known member
From what I can see, the only way to get top prices from small framed cattle is to market direct to consumers and bypass the stockyards and order buyers all together.
I'd also say that cows would need to be bigger than 1200 maybe 1300-1400 or bigger and bred to no less than a 5.5 frame bull and preferably 6-7 frame bull to get the growthy calves the market wants and buyers are willing to pay top dollar for.
I have found that even with having purebred Angus calves that does not translate to top sale prices especially if they are smaller framed, which a lot can be.
A lot of folks use SimAngus or other crosses to obtain some extra growth and frame, At the very least if they use straight Angus they are likely selecting for larger framed cattle.
The folks promoting the small cows and moderate milk etc, are promoting a marketing strategy themselves.
If that business model worked wide spread across the board more people would be going that route.
I don't mind cows in 1400 to 1500 pound range, and I want some pretty good milking ability to wean off bigger calves
Location matters. 1300-1500 lbs cows in many areas of the country you just as well light your $100 bills on fire. Much more efficient way of going broke then trying to buy enough feed to keep them alive let alone thrive !
chaded
Well-known member
Why can't you run a bull with the cows all year round and still have a defined calving window? I have a small herd and do this just fine, I don't see what difference it makes.
chevytaHOE5674
Well-known member
Yeah my bull runs with the cows from breeding thru calving. Preg check and cull the opens and late breds that don't fit your window. Then pull the bulls once cows start calving and keep them apart until its breeding time.
Dave
Well-known member
That is basically what I did when I ran a cow/calf operation. Except I shipped opens at weaning time. Cows were bred for February/March calves. Any cow have a calf after April 1 got sold as a pair. A couple weeks after the first calf was born Mr Bull went into a pen where he stayed for about 2 months.
Dave
Well-known member
Years ago a man told me that if you quit making excuses for your cows pretty quick you will have cows who don't need excuses. It is pretty simple they are livestock which we raise to make money. Didn't breed on time, you are gone. Came in open, trailer ride. Raised a sub par calf, so long. Most people don't have problems shipping a cow with attitude. Develop the state of mind with cows who don't produce.
