Farm Subsidies

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TB-Herefords

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Was curious how most everyone felt about them. Me another guy talkin. He thinks if not for the subsidies it would be a more competitive fair market. Not to mention commodities would be price quite higher. "Last year we managed ten dollar a bushel grain and people still managed." I don't personally remeber grain gettin that high but maybe I just wasn't payin close enough attention. We as americans spend the least amount of our income on food than any other country, if subsidies were droped than he thinks that would change. In a time like this though people are strugglin w/ makin a income littlelone spendin more of it on food. What I see as a catch 22 is if our commodities shot up the rate of inflation would go through the roof. That would we as producers see the same income; just higher figures? All and all I really don't know a lot about farm subsidies. So enlighten me. :wave:
 

LoveMoo11

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I think its great that the government supports agriculture but I don't think they are doing it properly. Small farmers need and should get more help. The government should stop supporting huge monoculture farms that are taking over the markets and polluting the environment. Also, I feel that the government should give more to vegetable and fruit producers rather than just supporting corn and soybeans. Nothing against those growers, but I think the people in our country might be healthier if good foods were cheaper and corn syrup wasn't in EVERYTHING. Just my two cents :)
 

HerefordSire

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The reason they exist might be a national security issue to assure citizens do not revolt due to hunger.
 

hayray

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LoveMoo11":1vmdzs9s said:
I think its great that the government supports agriculture but I don't think they are doing it properly. Small farmers need and should get more help. The government should stop supporting huge monoculture farms that are taking over the markets and polluting the environment. Also, I feel that the government should give more to vegetable and fruit producers rather than just supporting corn and soybeans. Nothing against those growers, but I think the people in our country might be healthier if good foods were cheaper and corn syrup wasn't in EVERYTHING. Just my two cents :)
You have some good points but also some mis-conceptions there - what is this about monoculture farms polluting the environment. And then there is about cheap food. Americans spend total less of their income on food then any other developed country and that percentage has steadily been decreasing except for the last couple of year. Another problem with subsidies is that every group wants to convince a politician to give them an unfair advantage over the competition of other agriculture commodities. I am proud to say I don't produce with goverment hand outs, it is just plain welfare and the American farm industry has been on a welfare program for decades.
 

Jogeephus

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TB-Herefords":11u6wjm3 said:
"Last year we managed ten dollar a bushel grain and people still managed." I don't personally remeber grain gettin that high but maybe I just wasn't payin close enough attention.

How many producers do you know that actually got paid $10 for their grain? How many do you know that were actually paid $1.00 for their cotton? The speculators said it was worth that much but when it came time for them to actually buy it ..... what happened? Look at what happened with oil. Was there a shortage? Again ... speculators in the commodities market.
 

MO_cows

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John Stossell did a very thought-provoking report on this on 20/20 not too long ago. He cited New Zealand as an example. They did away with farm subsidies, and when it was announced there was outrage and protesting in the streets. But a few years later, their farming economy is in much better shape than before. I think the script of the broadcast is still on his section at abcnews.com.
 

hayray

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I think John Stossel is great. I read that book of his - I forgot the name. He basically disproves the benefit of subsidies, welfare, gun control - and goverment schools - pretty much everything I am against.
 

iowahawkeyes

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Jogeephus":2k3j6d2m said:
TB-Herefords":2k3j6d2m said:
"Last year we managed ten dollar a bushel grain and people still managed." I don't personally remeber grain gettin that high but maybe I just wasn't payin close enough attention.

How many producers do you know that actually got paid $10 for their grain? How many do you know that were actually paid $1.00 for their cotton? The speculators said it was worth that much but when it came time for them to actually buy it ..... what happened? Look at what happened with oil. Was there a shortage? Again ... speculators in the commodities market.

lots of people around here got$10 beans and $5 corn, if not way more.
 

Jogeephus

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TB-Herefords":34crcnwa said:
What I see as a catch 22 is if our commodities shot up the rate of inflation would go through the roof. That would we as producers see the same income; just higher figures? All and all I really don't know a lot about farm subsidies. So enlighten me.

To clear the air, I take very little money from the government. Not because I can't but because I chose not to. I just want them to leave me alone and let me do my thing. Once you start taking money from them then you are merely a dog on a leash and there are strings attached. I prefer my freedom. That said, I don't fault anyoner for taking advantage of a program as long as they do not abuse the program.

Some call these programs welfare. I guess you could call it that but to me if a person is paying in more taxes than they are receiving from the government is this not more like a tax refund than welfare?

So what is welfare? Is it the guarantee of a decent price for your crop if the pencil pushing speculators rig the price and don't honor their contracts? Using Running Arrow Bill's argument about the value of forage, is welfare the cheap rent those in the west enjoy with their long term leases on gov't land? Could this not be bid out each year for other purposes at a higher price? I'm sure there are a lot of "green organizations" that would love to rent these properties for nature walks and such.

I don't know. But what I do see as a problem are those who abuse the system. Those people who insurance farm. They have know intention of actually making a crop. This is done outside the programs but is insured by the taxpayer. Whose at fault. I blame the government for not enforcing the rules cause if you know anything about farming then you know who the insurance farmers are. They give the real farmers a bad name hence this debate frequently comes up.

Of course here is the Catch 22. Whenever you allow the government to interfere under the guise of helping private business there will be abuse, fraud and waste. So, in my opinion, it would be nice to have a smaller government that only concerns itself with protecting our country like the constitution mandates. If this was done ACROSS THE BOARD to each and every agency AND the savings given back to the taxpayer through a reasonable and fair tax rate then I'd say get rid of all the programs. But, if they are going to take the money from the farming sector and reward those who chose not to work and are just a drain on society, I'd say leave well enough alone. However, it would be nice if the government actually enforced the laws in place regarding the abuse of these programs. My hats off to Obama because he understood the farm programs well enought to say the same.

But I would be careful on this subject because I seriously doubt the government will refund our savings to us the taxpayer. So the ten dollar question is - Would you rather reward someone who is creating jobs, and paying taxes get a tax refund OR would you rather see someone getting welfare? (BTW - I'm pretty sure Octo-Mom has received more government funds this year than any farmers in our area :mad: )
 

Jogeephus

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iowahawkeyes":uw8d7oei said:
Jogeephus":uw8d7oei said:
TB-Herefords":uw8d7oei said:
"Last year we managed ten dollar a bushel grain and people still managed." I don't personally remeber grain gettin that high but maybe I just wasn't payin close enough attention.

How many producers do you know that actually got paid $10 for their grain? How many do you know that were actually paid $1.00 for their cotton? The speculators said it was worth that much but when it came time for them to actually buy it ..... what happened? Look at what happened with oil. Was there a shortage? Again ... speculators in the commodities market.

lots of people around here got$10 beans and $5 corn, if not way more.

I know a lot of farmers here that got screwed on their contracts here. Something is wrong with this. I'm probably wrong, but it seems to me if these speculators say its $10 bucks then they should have to pay it.
 

robert

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subsidies are designed to keep food 'cheap' but get just enough money to the producer to stay in business but not go off the rails with too much :D

Our interests as producers is to get as much as we can for our product, subsidies discourage the incentive to fully achieve that. Governments interest is to keep food as cheap as possible so consumers have more money to spend on other stuff, keep their bellies full and drive the economy. Remember, 'Empty bellies not rhetoric fuel the fires of rebellion' and right now while the government watches folks investments go down the drain in order to gain more control of the population through 'fixing' the problem the last thing they need is expensive food. Gordon Brown, UK Prime minister, said last year that he didn't think food prices would raise, giving the green light to retailers / processors to do whatever they chose to keep prices down. Don't think for a minute the same doctrine isn't working here.
 

hayray

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Hey nobody has to sell to those speculators at that price if they don't want to. The speculation that brings us the high prices is also responsible for bringing us low prices, like cheap gas right now. All the subsidies do is to create a artificial advantage from one group while stealing money from others. I have for years seen land that was unavailable for me to lease because many who too lazy to farm it or poor business operators got paid not to farm it - 092 corn program hurt a lot of us back in the 90s. Also then I lost ground more recently to large "dady rich" crop operators who were cashing in on the goverment subsidized ethanol industry. It is a wonder anyone can be a agricultural entrepenuer in todays economy with all the subsidies that established crop operators are getting. I would prefer to no subsidies and let me compete on a fair level.
 

hayray

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robert":hcu5ajwz said:
subsidies are designed to keep food 'cheap' but get just enough money to the producer to stay in business but not go off the rails with too much :D

Our interests as producers is to get as much as we can for our product, subsidies discourage the incentive to fully achieve that. Governments interest is to keep food as cheap as possible so consumers have more money to spend on other stuff, keep their bellies full and drive the economy. Remember, 'Empty bellies not rhetoric fuel the fires of rebellion' and right now while the government watches folks investments go down the drain in order to gain more control of the population through 'fixing' the problem the last thing they need is expensive food. Gordon Brown, UK Prime minister, said last year that he didn't think food prices would raise, giving the green light to retailers / processors to do whatever they chose to keep prices down. Don't think for a minute the same doctrine isn't working here.
I really don't think it has anything to do about wanting cheap food. A politician is buying votes by keeping the lobbying groups happy. You really think that the politician is thinking about we need cheap food, that sure does not explain the dissproportionate cottom subsidies.
 

Jogeephus

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hayray":2l466yc8 said:
I would prefer to no subsidies and let me compete on a fair level.

I agree with you. I'd prefer that they shut down ALL these programs. Paying someone not to farm is BS. CRP is BS. Paying someone through EQUIP to put a water trough on their property is BS. I mean if you can't afford a dang water trough step aside and let someone that can use the land.

hayray":2l466yc8 said:
Hey nobody has to sell to those speculators at that price if they don't want to.

What I'm saying here is that while the board said cotton was $1 /lb, you couldn't sell it for this. So what's the deal? I don't understand it but seems to me that if these specualtors are running the price up they should have to play with more than paper. Some producers I know got paid higher prices under contract but I know several who had contracts that were not honored. If you or I did not honor our contract what do you think would happen to us? I think the whole thing is a mess and the mess is caused by to much intervention but I'd rather see a farmer get money than a leach.
 

hayray

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I don't know much about the speculation business but those speculators that are so bad are also so good is what I am saying . They have to take all the bad with all the good, like I was saying before, look at the oil industry right now. So my point is that we need the speculators. Remember what happened when the goverment did price controls in the 70s', of course I was just a young un' back then but I sorta remember how they price fixed beef. Gas would still be $4 a gallon if the goverment came in an took away speculation last summer and fixed prices.
 

Jogeephus

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Correct me if I'm wrong but my understanding is that it was the speculators who drove gas to $4 a gallon. We had plenty of oil. This is why Opec refused Bush when he asked them to increase production. I agree that the speculators do some good by financing feed lots and such but it seems to me that if they say a commodity is worth something they should have back this up with money if there is a willing seller. I don't fully understand this but what I saw this year was just wrong.
 

hayray

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Well I think you are wrong and also right on some of it but I can't correct ya cause I don't know enough and I gotta put the computer and coffee down and get outside, I think it is 17 out right now but sunny. But if you do think it is just plain wrong then do you feel wrong about paying for cheap gas right now, - send em a check and make it right.
 

Jogeephus

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hayray":kgs0jrn7 said:
Well I think you are wrong and also right on some of it but I can't correct ya cause I don't know enough and I gotta put the computer and coffee down and get outside, I think it is 17 out right now but sunny. But if you do think it is just plain wrong then do you feel wrong about paying for cheap gas right now, - send em a check and make it right.

Do you really think we were having an oil shortage? I don't. This is the explanation that I was given and it sounds plausible to me. Stock market was going to he77. People pulled money out. Invested in oil. Tons of money flowed into oil thus driving the prices up thus further crippling the economy. People raised cain. Bush asks Opec to up production. Opec sees that there is plenty of oil and these unrealistic prices are being driven by commodity brokers who are producing nothing but paper and getting rich for it. Political pressure is put on them and they back off and prices go down.

As for sending someone a check, I don't know who I'd send it to. I'm working on my taxes and it appears I'll be sending them a pretty nice one so they can bail out these people who create these problems. :mad:
 

LoveMoo11

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hayray":2sbmcwx1 said:
LoveMoo11":2sbmcwx1 said:
I think its great that the government supports agriculture but I don't think they are doing it properly. Small farmers need and should get more help. The government should stop supporting huge monoculture farms that are taking over the markets and polluting the environment. Also, I feel that the government should give more to vegetable and fruit producers rather than just supporting corn and soybeans. Nothing against those growers, but I think the people in our country might be healthier if good foods were cheaper and corn syrup wasn't in EVERYTHING. Just my two cents :)
You have some good points but also some mis-conceptions there - what is this about monoculture farms polluting the environment. And then there is about cheap food. Americans spend total less of their income on food then any other developed country and that percentage has steadily been decreasing except for the last couple of year. Another problem with subsidies is that every group wants to convince a politician to give them an unfair advantage over the competition of other agriculture commodities. I am proud to say I don't produce with goverment hand outs, it is just plain welfare and the American farm industry has been on a welfare program for decades.

What do you mean what is this about pollution? I am talking about huge farms, not the smaller monoculture farms. The big feedlots, CAFOs and planters use a lot of oil, fertilizer, pesticides, etc. and its not all managed properly. I am not saying they are all like that but it is inevitable that waste management is going to be an issue when you are big. I agree with you on the lobbying-everyone wants a bigger piece than anyone else. The people who are getting the handouts are usually the people who don't need them.
 

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