F-1 Angus/ Charolais bull

[denoginnizer]

I noticed a local bull sale where they have several of these crosses.
Anybody tried one of these bulls? What color would the calves be if the cows were black?

 

[Aero]

I noticed a local bull sale where they have several of these crosses.
Anybody tried one of these bulls? What color would the calves be if the cows were black?

if somebody tells you one color, they are telling you a lie.

could be solid black, solid white, or somewhere in between (gray area )

 

[denoginnizer]

I am interested to see what they sell for.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Why??

DOC HARRIS

 

[Dusty]

F-1 bulls in my herd are Purebred Angus x Purebred Charolais.. Both ways as Females to Males...

Popularity of them are going through the roof in the mid to south states... The average of 20 head at our sale was $2630 with the Purebred 25 Angus being $3110 average and 65 head of Charolais averaged $3420.

Similiar Results at the local Fink Beef Genetics sale, where the F-1's actually out averaged the Purebred Angus and Charolais..

What we are getting from 80% solid black cows are dark pigmented skin, with 50% being the extreme smoke calves... Extremely dark and 1/4 being light smoke.. we are still getting an occassional light red from a few baldies, the hereford is coming out in that light red... One thing i am very pleased with is solid pigmented skins, in both the Charolais and Angus breed you can get spotted pigments on bags or tailhead... That is not showing through in the 2nd and 3rd calf F-1 Females...

We have two feedlots that have been buying the calves off the F-1 bulls directly out of our customers pasteurs and reports are saying high high high G&Y...

 

[Dusty]

Hey Doc this will get you going....

I know for a fact that the F-1 will produce a more profitable end product, high performing calf that is more efficient....

That should get you started... Let me Have it...
Tell me i am wrong and prove it...

D

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Hey Doc this will get you going....

I know for a fact that the F-1 will produce a more profitable end product, high performing calf that is more efficient....

That should get you started... Let me Have it...
Tell me i am wrong and prove it...

D

D-

That DID get me started! . . . because you are right, and I have professed that for years! You are NOT wrong in any way. That is why I am a proponent of crossbreeding in it's highest form - that is - using HIGH QUALITY seedstock as the parents of the F-1 progeny!! Hello! I just let you have it, Kemo-Sabe! :arrow: :lol2:

DOC HARRIS

 

[MikeC]

I have a few bull calves sired by a high growth and muscled Char bull out of some nice New Design 878 daughters.

Thinking of leaving them intact.

They are a little smaller than the the Char calves of the same age but thick and muscled.

Here's my chance to see if this combo works......

 

[DOC HARRIS]

I have a few bull calves sired by a high growth and muscled Char bull out of some nice New Design 878 daughters.

Thinking of leaving them intact.

They are a little smaller than the the Char calves of the same age but thick and muscled.

Here's my chance to see if this combo works......

MikeC-

If you leave "them" intact, what would be your next breeding decision?

With the New Design 878 genetics you have a plethora of multi-trait EPD's that rival or supercede the best that the Angus breed, or perhaps any other breed, can present! How to utilize those high accuracy characteristics without diluting them with those traits of females, either Angus or Charolais or any other breed, which cannot compliment 878's EPD's or traits, is a challenge that is overwhelming, at best. In my opinion, THIS is where careful and incisive line-breeding can be a quantum leap in developing a breeding pattern which will establish a benchmark of genetics to be utilized in a couple or three generations. THEN your experimentation with Charolais or other breeds will display some real meritorious results. And the way to cross check that protocol is to take your best Charolais cow(s) - right now - and see what an F-1 result would be in the next calving period. Then select your breeders within my suggested 'line breeding' plan and compare results.

Use six cows as a comparison base on each mating decision. Cross breed three this year to Charolais and the other three to 878. Then, next year, switch breed the cows to the same bulls as before. The next year, with the retained heifers, select three for 878, and three for the Charolais, and continue that protocol for a couple of mating periods, staying with the last mating plan repeatedly.

Takes time - but it would be interesting, besides building a herd of females that would knock your eyes out! Don't go into orbit over this plan - just think about it!

DOC HARRIS

 

[MikeC]

I have a few bull calves sired by a high growth and muscled Char bull out of some nice New Design 878 daughters.

Thinking of leaving them intact.

They are a little smaller than the the Char calves of the same age but thick and muscled.

Here's my chance to see if this combo works......

MikeC-

If you leave "them" intact, what would be your next breeding decision?

With the New Design 878 genetics you have a plethora of multi-trait EPD's that rival or supercede the best that the Angus breed, or perhaps any other breed, can present! How to utilize those high accuracy characteristics without diluting them with those traits of females, either Angus or Charolais or any other breed, which cannot compliment 878's EPD's or traits, is a challenge that is overwhelming, at best. In my opinion, THIS is where careful and incisive line-breeding can be a quantum leap in developing a breeding pattern which will establish a benchmark of genetics to be utilized in a couple or three generations. THEN your experimentation with Charolais or other breeds will display some real meritorious results. And the way to cross check that protocol is to take your best Charolais cow(s) - right now - and see what an F-1 result would be in the next calving period. Then select your breeders within my suggested 'line breeding' plan and compare results.

Use six cows as a comparison base on each mating decision. Cross breed three this year to Charolais and the other three to 878. Then, next year, switch breed the cows to the same bulls as before. The next year, with the retained heifers, select three for 878, and three for the Charolais, and continue that protocol for a couple of mating periods, staying with the last mating plan repeatedly.

Takes time - but it would be interesting, besides building a herd of females that would knock your eyes out! Don't go into orbit over this plan - just think about it!

DOC HARRIS

Hmmmmmmmmm....never thought about going in that deep.

Was simply thinking about putting these AngusXChar bulls on some super baldies and/or brangus cows.

 

[Beef11]

i guess i've never thought of a charXangus as a breeding animal. I would rather have baldy's bred to a char.

 

[Aero]

Doc,
you make it too complicated... there is an easier, simpler, more profitable way...

linebred purebred herds.
sell animals however you normally do after crossing in a consistent/similar way.

ratio profitability for each calf. contempoary group by sex and sale type.
flush the top 10%
cull the bottom 10%
repeat same breeding for top 50%
evaluate breeding for 50-90 percentile


of course, this requires tracking costs through the year

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Doc,
you make it too complicated... there is an easier, simpler, more profitable way...

linebred purebred herds.
sell animals however you normally do after crossing in a consistent/similar way.

ratio profitability for each calf. contempoary group by sex and sale type.
flush the top 10%
cull the bottom 10%
repeat same breeding for top 50%
evaluate breeding for 50-90 percentile


of course, this requires tracking costs through the year

Aero-

Your plan has merit, however it necessitates arbitrary decision-making insofar as culling is concerned, and that is where the rub comes in. Breeder "X" might cull heifers 3,5, and 9 whereby Breeder "L" might disagree with Breeder "X" and instead cull Heifers 1,4 and 6! Your plan would work wonderfully well, whereby my plan would let the chips fall where they may.

It is all "Pie in the Sky" at best, but there are some definite solid facts encompassed in the hypothesis. "New Design 878" is one exceptional Beef bull, and to have his heifers from exceptional cows of ANY breed would be an opportunity not to be turned down!

DOC HARRIS

 

[Dusty]

Guys,
I am using Leachman Right Time daughters and crossing them on a Cigar x Wyoming Wind Bull that Topped a past Thomas Ranch Sale in South Dakota.

All the Right time daughters are out of 6595 daughters and are 7/8th full sisters. I am finding out that i get great bone, the first calf heifers take after the Cigar and Right Time Genetics.

Also the bottom half of the calves have been extremely popular with the local 4-h kids.... I will post proof of genetics..

 

[capt]

I have no doubt in my mind at all about the power and profitability of what an F-1 will produce like, BUT remember using a hybrid (F-1) bull on either a purebred cow or a cross bred cow takes you to the next generation (F-2) cross of which time and time again has NOT proven to be as performance oriented or profitable as the F-1 cross is. I am not saying a Char sired calf out of a black baldy cow is not a great idea, (it makes perfect sense to me especially if you send all the STEERS and heifers to the feedlot). I am saying research has proven that the more you get away from the F-1 cross the less and less bybrid vigor you will see. Think about that carefully!!

capt

 

[dun]

I have no doubt in my mind at all about the power and profitability of what an F-1 will produce like, BUT remember using a hybrid (F-1) bull on either a purebred cow or a cross bred cow takes you to the next generation (F-2) cross of which time and time again has NOT proven to be as performance oriented or profitable as the F-1 cross is. I am not saying a Char sired calf out of a black baldy cow is not a great idea, (it makes perfect sense to me especially if you send all the STEERS and heifers to the feedlot). I am saying research has proven that the more you get away from the F-1 cross the less and less bybrid vigor you will see. Think about that carefully!!

capt

Sort of right but also wrong. Using an F1 bull on anything other then another F1 of the exact same breed composition will not get you to an F2. An F1 bull used on cross bred cows of totally different breed composition or purebreds of a different breed will still give you a decent amount of heterosis. The thing is that maternal heterosis is reallly the biggest part of the pie. That's why an F1 cow bred to a different breed of bull will produce a calf that will out do the F1 generation.

 

[Beef11]

An angus Char Bull crossed "back" onto angus cows equals an f1b notice the "b" is for backcross. It makes sense to me to use a hybrid bull on straightbred cows but it makes more sense to me to use a straightbred bull on hybrid cows. If i'm going to take advantage of hybrid vigor i want it where it will do the most good. In my mind that is in the cows.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

I have no doubt in my mind at all about the power and profitability of what an F-1 will produce like, BUT remember using a hybrid (F-1) bull on either a purebred cow or a cross bred cow takes you to the next generation (F-2) cross of which time and time again has NOT proven to be as performance oriented or profitable as the F-1 cross is. I am not saying a Char sired calf out of a black baldy cow is not a great idea, (it makes perfect sense to me especially if you send all the STEERS and heifers to the feedlot). I am saying research has proven that the more you get away from the F-1 cross the less and less bybrid vigor you will see. Think about that carefully!!

capt

capt-

You are right! It is almost a self-defeating protocol UNLESS it is managed properly. That is why I stress that Purebred seedstock with the bull AND the cow is necessary to BEGIN the mating protocols in order to preclude unknown negative genetics infiltrating the formulae. The old-time thinking that a purebred bull will fix all of the problems is a fallacy. But it is like pounding sand in a rat hole to explain this thinking to some people. You just have to continue explaining the reasoning over and over and over!

DOC HARRIS

 

[Aero]

my particular path simplifies and diversifies at least for me.

2 (closed, linebred,) purebred herds.

breed the best (or all) purebred cows to the same breed of bull for 21 days. swap bull breed after 21 days.

purebred females calves either go into the purebred herd, are sold as registered heifers, or sold as commercial.
purebred males are sold for seedstock or sold as commercial.
F1 females go into the commercial herd, are sold as replacements or sold as commercial.
F1 males are sold as commercial or as hybrid breeding stock.

expect to sell everything at commodity prices.

there are a few things that are neat in this scheme:

• increased productive life of commercial cows through hybrid vigor (most important by far). Replacements are too costly to raise; longer productive life = lower replacement costs.
  increased fertility by using only animals that get bred in 21 days for the base (purebred) herds.
  sell calves into any livestock market (seedstock, feedlot, replacements).
  replacement females are consistent from year to year so customers know what they are getting.