Ethical Decision Making ... what would you do?

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IluvABbeef

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The question I had bolded meant something to me because it reminded me of the discussion of "why don't vets doctor cattle anymore?" I beleive that the vet has an alleigiance to both clients and animals, client because they're the ones owning and caring for the animal(s) and have a big responsibility to that caring; and communications to the vet with concern (?) about the animal's health. The vet also has has allegiance to the animal because that is what the vet is there for, to make sure that the animal gets proper treatment, comfort, and care. But then again that question is debatable and yes, there are no right or wrong answers. Here's my thoughts on these issues.

1. I'd try to talk her into putting the dog up for adoption, because it doesn't sound reasonable to put a dog down that is perfectly healthy (lets assume). Either that I'd offer her to buy the dog off her and THEN put it up for adoption at a local shelter.

2. I found this a difficult one. The sow's leg needs to be fixed, because how is she going to farrow properly with a broken leg? Again, I'd talk him into letting me have a "proper" look at her and maybe slide in an indirect suggestion to fix up the leg, or else buy her. But there's also another thing. I could euthanize her on the spot to take her out of her misery and do a C-section to take out the piglets, immediately though it would be a week early to do so. And it might cost them some $$$$ but since they don't care about the pig, why care about the cost?

3. Here it depends whether the cancer cells in the eye would spread, or they would stay and multiply in one place. But lets just assume it's like any other cancer that would spread to the rest of the cow's body, eventually killing her. And maybe her calf. I'd sooner suggest to slaughter her, since the owner would get some money in the carcass, because the rest of the body is unaffected.

4. He's not worth the keep. I'd tell him to go find someone else to look at his animals. He's worth calling the SPCA to.

5. Give me one reason why I would not like to lose this client. Docking tails is inhumane if not given the proper procedure, and I'd sooner go with Vicky the Vet's suggestion.
(Thanks Vicky!)

6. Since pig health/performance has not been affected by the deteriorating air quality, it soon will, eventually in the long run. Whether the smokers should quit smoking or not is none of my concern, that's the employees' decision and the employer's decision to bring it up to them. I would recommend he THINK about changing the venitilation system, and agree to keep on checking the herd health of the pigs. Besides, the $7500 revenue is worth the money to a vet practice! However, if air quality continues to decline and performance and health in the swine also start to show a decline, well, he'll have no choice but to change the ventilation system.

Just my thoughts.

Here's another thing that I found that is sort of unrelated to this (or is it?) It's based on Animal Welfare and an animal's "rights" See what you think.

The Five Freedoms:
- Freedom from starvation and malnutrition
- Freedom from thermal and physical discomfort
- Freedom from pain, injury and disease
- Freedom from fear and distress
- Freedom to express normal behaviours

Don't worry: I'm no animal right's activist (don't like them anyways :mad: :x :mad: )
 

Victoria

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The Five Freedoms:
- Freedom from starvation and malnutrition
- Freedom from thermal and physical discomfort
- Freedom from pain, injury and disease
- Freedom from fear and distress
- Freedom to express normal behaviours


I agree with them all but at the same time two of these scare me. Freedom from fear and distress and Freedom to express normal behaviours. I truly believe we practise them. We try to keep our cows lives as happy and normal as possible but those two freedoms in an animal rights persons hands are dangers.

Castrating, dehorning, shipping, preg testing would be considered activities which cause fear and distress. No more shipping them either that causes distress.
Normal behavioiurs- I don't let the bulls breed whenever they want to (their normal behaviour). We have fences and that in some people's eyes reduce normal behaviour.

One of the reasons that laws agains animal abuse are not tougher is because the animal rights people when lobbying for them end up putting in something stupid. I think we need tougher penalties for actual animal abuse. Someone who is letting their cows starve to death should do jail time not pay a small fine and then get their herd back. It makes me sick. What makes me equally as sick is the people that run around saying cows should not be humanely killed for food. Most of these animal rights people don't know a thing about animals. Most ranchers are too scared to not fight a lot of these laws that sound good if you use some common sense. We all know that one thing that isn't common is sense. It's the animals that suffer because of it. I could go on for pages but no one wants to listen to me rant. :p Besides, I have cows to go feed. If I am half an hour late they are all lined up hoping to see someone from the SPCA so they can report me.
 
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IluvABbeef

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Victoria":2zad7pkj said:
The Five Freedoms:
- Freedom from starvation and malnutrition
- Freedom from thermal and physical discomfort
- Freedom from pain, injury and disease
- Freedom from fear and distress
- Freedom to express normal behaviours


I agree with them all but at the same time two of these scare me. Freedom from fear and distress and Freedom to express normal behaviours. I truly believe we practise them. We try to keep our cows lives as happy and normal as possible but those two freedoms in an animal rights persons hands are dangers.

Castrating, dehorning, shipping, preg testing would be considered activities which cause fear and distress. No more shipping them either that causes distress.
Normal behavioiurs- I don't let the bulls breed whenever they want to (their normal behaviour). We have fences and that in some people's eyes reduce normal behaviour.

One of the reasons that laws agains animal abuse are not tougher is because the animal rights people when lobbying for them end up putting in something stupid. I think we need tougher penalties for actual animal abuse. Someone who is letting their cows starve to death should do jail time not pay a small fine and then get their herd back. It makes me sick. What makes me equally as sick is the people that run around saying cows should not be humanely killed for food. Most of these animal rights people don't know a thing about animals. Most ranchers are too scared to not fight a lot of these laws that sound good if you use some common sense. We all know that one thing that isn't common is sense. It's the animals that suffer because of it. I could go on for pages but no one wants to listen to me rant. :p Besides, I have cows to go feed. If I am half an hour late they are all lined up hoping to see someone from the SPCA so they can report me.
There is a fair bit of contraversy over the third freedom I found. With the dehorning part, we have to inflict pain on the animal so that in the future those horns don't cause any harm to handlers and fellow livestock when there's different difficlt situations arising. I have a personal experience with that, when I was still in elementary school, and that was when I saw a brown white-face steer with a horn span of at least a foot in length strangle another steer to death: :shock: and that steer that died also had horns, possibly a charolais. And we've been dehorning calves since. And castrating bulls that are thrown our way (none this year :) ), since they can cause a lot of distress and injury to a herd.
 

TheLazyM

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Victoria":3m3tcqze said:
The Five Freedoms:
- Freedom from starvation and malnutrition
- Freedom from thermal and physical discomfort
- Freedom from pain, injury and disease
- Freedom from fear and distress
- Freedom to express normal behaviours

I dont agree as written. what i mean is laws are written to have loop holes. so that lawers can twist to their own needs in court. i would wont to be held to none of them.
Lets take #1. say a farmer is living in a are that is in a bad drought. a family member has died he had to bury them pay hospital bills etc etc. not much grass is growing he's buying what hay he can but every body in the area is really trying to hold on to as much as possible to get thru the bad spell. his cows are lossing weight , but over all is healthy. he cant afford to ship hay in. so he decides to ride it out untell they calve. now somebody could call the law on this farmer have him put into jail and maybe he cant raise cattle nomore. i dont think so.
Take #2 when do you say when? am i going to have to build my herd a house with central heat and air? a window unit and fire place at minium? we are talking about animals that have lived out in the elements since creation.
#3 say your dehorning a replacement heifer you just bought. somebody that is a animal rights nut had moved in your area a while back is walking up to interduce them selfes or what not see the blood the heifer makes noise that the conseave as painful grunts calls up their buddies your hauled into court..........
#4 we use fear to keep the hard headed ones in line simply put. thats how the animal kindom social order works. we as people are kept in line for fear of going to jail or even the electric chair.
#5 i'm not tearing down my fence so my animals can graze on the other side of the fence just because somebody thinks it against their right to express their normal behavior. i'n not going to let a bull head butt me because thats his normal behavior. i'll take an axehandle to his head.
 
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IluvABbeef

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TheLazyM":5qng1pil said:
Victoria":5qng1pil said:
The Five Freedoms:
- Freedom from starvation and malnutrition
- Freedom from thermal and physical discomfort
- Freedom from pain, injury and disease
- Freedom from fear and distress
- Freedom to express normal behaviours

I dont agree as written. what i mean is laws are written to have loop holes. so that lawers can twist to their own needs in court. i would wont to be held to none of them.
Lets take #1. say a farmer is living in a are that is in a bad drought. a family member has died he had to bury them pay hospital bills etc etc. not much grass is growing he's buying what hay he can but every body in the area is really trying to hold on to as much as possible to get thru the bad spell. his cows are lossing weight , but over all is healthy. he cant afford to ship hay in. so he decides to ride it out untell they calve. now somebody could call the law on this farmer have him put into jail and maybe he cant raise cattle nomore. i dont think so.
Take #2 when do you say when? am i going to have to build my herd a house with central heat and air? a window unit and fire place at minium? we are talking about animals that have lived out in the elements since creation.
#3 say your dehorning a replacement heifer you just bought. somebody that is a animal rights nut had moved in your area a while back is walking up to interduce them selfes or what not see the blood the heifer makes noise that the conseave as painful grunts calls up their buddies your hauled into court..........
#4 we use fear to keep the hard headed ones in line simply put. thats how the animal kindom social order works. we as people are kept in line for fear of going to jail or even the electric chair.
#5 i'm not tearing down my fence so my animals can graze on the other side of the fence just because somebody thinks it against their right to express their normal behavior. i'n not going to let a bull head butt me because thats his normal behavior. i'll take an axehandle to his head.
I totally agree with you, LazyM. not one can please the other, and folks, like them PETA nuts, get too dam hung up on those sort of things. No animal has complete freedom from those five freedoms unless their dead! :shock:

Here's a neat (and humourous? ;-) ) site on the battle against PETA:
http://www.afac.ab.ca/current/rights/dm1104.pdf
 

rwtherefords

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Animals are property! They are NOT collectively owned by society! I believe they should be treated ethically but it is not up to you, me, society, gov., etc. to police anyone elses behavior as it relates to THEIR property. When you stand before God on your judgment day, you'll have to give an account for your unethical acts. And, yes, I get very angry with people who are obviously mistreating their animals.

I say, save the ethical questions for something really important like killing human babies before they're born, or things like the treatment that was given to many Vietnam veterans when they returned home. There's much bigger issues than whether or not to help "Suzie" kill a dog she no longer wants. IT'S A DOG!
 

TheLazyM

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rwtherefords":12tcvoj4 said:
I say, save the ethical questions for something really important like killing human babies before they're born, or things like the treatment that was given to many Vietnam veterans when they returned home. There's much bigger issues than whether or not to help "Suzie" kill a dog she no longer wants. IT'S A DOG!

I agree. i never heard a PETA supporter speak out against abortions. i feel we should never put animals higher than humans. i think thats the first step into idoltry. i think there is a broad line between Suzie "killing" her dog or putting it to sleep and dog fighting. when we as society can no longer tell between the two we can no longer govern ourselfs honestly and justly.
 

sillco

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IluvABbeef":ow73a3t4 said:
i found an exercise that i was given by my An Sci 200 prof called "Ethical Decision Making" and the intro is this:

"'Perhaps the most difficult moral problem that confronts veterinarians today concerns the vet's obligation to the animal. Whereas all the other moral tugs--obligations to the client, peers, society and self--are pretty clearly outlined in the social ethic, the question of one's duties towards animals has been virtually ignored by society and by the consensus social ethic until very recently... The fundamental question of veterinary ethics amounts to this: Does the vet have primary allegiance to client or animal?'"

The cases on this excercise are real good, and I mean all of them, and I'm having a hard time choosing which one is the best... Besides, all of them are from a number of vets' experiences, definately not fiction; "as you read the following cases (okay, I'll put two :roll: ) and assess what you would do, try to think creatively. Maybe the glass is 'half-empty' or maybe it's 'half-full.' Or maybe you just have the wrong size glass! :shock: "

Here they are:

1. A woman brings you her five-year-old cocker spaniel for euthanasia. She is not a regular client of yours, and you aks why she wants the animal destroyed. She says she is moving in to an apartment with her boyfriend, he doesn't like the dog, and pets are not allowed in the apartment building. You ask if she has tried to put the dog up for adoption and she replies it is none of your own business. She simply wants the dog humanely destroyed, and of you don't euthanize it, her boyfriend will shoot it.

Is it ethically correct for you to euthanize the dog?


2. You are called to a five-hundred sow farrow-to-finish swine operation to examine a problem with vaginal discharges in a sow. There are three full-time employers and one manager overseeing approximately five thousand animals. As you examine several sows in the crated gestation unit, you notice one with a hind leg at an unusual angle and inquire about her status. You are told. "She broke her leg yesterday, and she's due to farrow next week. We'll let her farrow in here, and then we'll shoot her and foster off her pigs."

Is it ethically correct to leave the sow with a broken leg for one week while you await her farrowing?


Darn good questions, eh? I'd like to see some good arguments happening... ;-) ;-)

Oh and if anybody wants to know what the other cases are, well, you know what to do... :D

Karin

I think the vet should tell the client that he will take care of the dog and then give it to the humane socity for adoption.

The vet should offer to set the leg so the pig will have some comfort. At no cost if necessary.
 

SPRINGER FARMS MURRAY GRE

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Bez!":3dx7ozp6 said:
cypressfarms":3dx7ozp6 said:
Bez!":3dx7ozp6 said:
One Kilo = 2.24 pounds
35 Kilos = 78.4 pounds

I wonder if we are doing her homework assignments as well?

;-)

Bez!

Oooooh Bez, can't resist. A kg is 2.2045 pounds.
I work at a Taiwanese owned plastic plant and have to convert back and forth many times a day, hence the anal reply ;-)


:lol: :lol:

I missed out in typing the "0" and carried the mistake forward.

:oops:

I will take that licking with your wooden spoon - just to show I am a man when it comes to taking the punishment I darned well deserve.

I bow to you.

:p :p :p

Bez!

Interesting....in medicine (an ART not a SCIENCE) a kg is considered to be 2.2 lbs. ;-) :cboy: ;-)
 

pasomare

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I'm certainly no advocate of PETA (people eating tasty animals), but the idea of ethics regarding animals seems to be something that people just make up to suit their own convenience. A couple of years ago, I bought a beautiful Charlois heifer at a feeder sale. Didn't see a bloody thing the matter with her. Couple of days later, she refused to eat. Then I noticed she wasn't making manure----, got my wonderful old vet out that evening, and he solved the problem in short order. couple of snips with his scissors, and we had piles of manure, and the poor animals rectum hanging out about a foot. Seems she had expelled her rectum, and the previous owner just had it stuffed back in, and sewn that way so she looked normal. Of course she couldn't live that way, our Doc Barnett said he could remove the rectum and hook everything up straight, but then she would always just have manure running down her legs. The only ethical thing to do was have her put down, and own the loss. (of course our vet did offer to put her back together so we could send her back thru the sale, but that would not have been fair to the heifer or the next poor soul who bought her.) I, too, have neighbors who do not practice the best husbandry, but like my husband keeps telling me, just take good care of your own, that's all you are responsible for---
paso
 

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