Epd's

[Frankie]

How do you feel about the more progressive breed associations combining EPDs and coming up with one set of them for all of the included breeds?

dun

Wouldn't that sort of hurt the identification of the individual breeds?

 

[MikeC]

Here's a starter link. Not sure what all breeds have signed on other then Red Angus, limo, I think Brangus Gelbvieh originally but I;m not sure they;re still onboard. The one I would like to see involved is Simmenthal.
http://redangus.org/multi-breed-nce/

How in the heck are they gonna get the commercial breeders to weigh every calf at birth, weaning, and yearling to gather the information? Not to mention turning in heights, scrotum measurements, ultrasound data, and everything else involved?

 

[Tod Dague]

Here's a starter link. Not sure what all breeds have signed on other then Red Angus, limo, I think Brangus Gelbvieh originally but I;m not sure they;re still onboard. The one I would like to see involved is Simmenthal.
http://redangus.org/multi-breed-nce/

How in the heck are they gonna get the commercial breeders to weigh every calf at birth, weaning, and yearling to gather the information? Not to mention turning in heights, scrotum measurements, ultrasound data, and everything else involved?

I must have missed something. Why would the commercial people need to take these weights when the breeders are already doing it? The only thing they need to make it relevant is some sort of cross over from one breed to another such as smart cross limflex and the breeding up that happens with brangus and angus plus.

 

[MikeC]

Here's a starter link. Not sure what all breeds have signed on other then Red Angus, limo, I think Brangus Gelbvieh originally but I;m not sure they;re still onboard. The one I would like to see involved is Simmenthal.
http://redangus.org/multi-breed-nce/

How in the heck are they gonna get the commercial breeders to weigh every calf at birth, weaning, and yearling to gather the information? Not to mention turning in heights, scrotum measurements, ultrasound data, and everything else involved?

I must have missed something. Why would the commercial people need to take these weights when the breeders are already doing it? The only thing they need to make it relevant is some sort of cross over from one breed to another such as smart cross limflex and the breeding up that happens with brangus and angus plus.

For verification. How would you get accuracy without verification? The purebred folks are verifying at each weaning period. Are they gonna take the model as gospel for heterosis?

 

[Tod Dague]

Here's a starter link. Not sure what all breeds have signed on other then Red Angus, limo, I think Brangus Gelbvieh originally but I;m not sure they;re still onboard. The one I would like to see involved is Simmenthal.
http://redangus.org/multi-breed-nce/

How in the heck are they gonna get the commercial breeders to weigh every calf at birth, weaning, and yearling to gather the information? Not to mention turning in heights, scrotum measurements, ultrasound data, and everything else involved?

I must have missed something. Why would the commercial people need to take these weights when the breeders are already doing it? The only thing they need to make it relevant is some sort of cross over from one breed to another such as smart cross limflex and the breeding up that happens with brangus and angus plus.

For verification. How would you get accuracy without verification? The purebred folks are verifying at each weaning period. Are they gonna take the model as gospel for heterosis?

Is that how they verify EPDs or are they just taking the model as gospel for EPDs?

 

[ollie']

GOOOOoooooo Epd'ssssss!!!!

 

[MikeC]

Is that how they verify EPDs or are they just taking the model as gospel for EPDs?

Common sense tell me that each time a calf weighs within the estimated range of the EPD's previously calculated, the accuracy goes up.

What else would you call it besides verification?

 

[Jogeephus]

Is that how they verify EPDs or are they just taking the model as gospel for EPDs?

Common sense tell me that each time a calf weighs within the estimated range of the EPD's previously calculated, the accuracy goes up.

What else would you call it besides verification?

You are assuming they will fall in that range. What happens when it doesn't? Or if it falls on the low or high side of the deviation you are using? Statistically it should change for the better or worse. If you have a new bull and you have calculated the estimated EPD of this bull how can you have accurate numbers without a proper sampling of its offspring? And in so doing do the EPD's go up or down based on the collected data or are they just "fixed" based on your original assumptions?

 

[DOC HARRIS]

As has been mentioned and discussed in the past, large contemporary grouping is necessary when providing accurate performance records and for establishing accuracies. One calf - whatever its statistics happen to be - won't influence a cow's (or bull's) EPD's for any trait significantly. The more calves to provide statistics, the more accurate the results will be. One thousand calves produced over the life span of a bull provides a pretty good picture of his breeding abilities. One calf - doesn't mean squat-doodly!

DOC HARRIS

 

[auctionboy]

Weaning; Charolais 38.8 = Angus 0
Yearling ; Charolais 53.1 = Angus 0

Mike, am I reading this wrong? So, what is the Charolais epd going to be when an Angus has a yw of 90?

38.8 more than the Angus=128.8

If I am interpreting your question correctly.

That 128.8 should be 143.1
I have a question. What is the 0 yw for angus in actual pounds and where is that information?

 

[Brandonm2]

Weaning; Charolais 38.8 = Angus 0
Yearling ; Charolais 53.1 = Angus 0

Mike, am I reading this wrong? So, what is the Charolais epd going to be when an Angus has a yw of 90?

38.8 more than the Angus=128.8

If I am interpreting your question correctly.

That 128.8 should be 143.1
I have a question. What is the 0 yw for angus in actual pounds and where is that information?

I know we have argued about this before on these boards; but there is no actual hard and set value for 0. Depending on who has the cow in their herd and what they are doing with that calf a herd of 100 Anguses with 0 yearling wt. EPDs could AVG within a 400 lb actual wt swing easily. All the EPD is telling me is that typically if I had 50 calves with a YEPD of +100 in a drylot with 50 calves with a YEPD of +0 then at an adjusted 365 day wt the +100 calves should normally weigh on AVERAGE 200 lbs more (the EPD is the breeding value of the animal so you multiply that by 2 too get the PREDICTION of actual performance for that individual). If I had the same calves on good forage the +100 calves would definitely be bigger than the +0 calves. Theoretically, even there they would be +200 lbs heavier though as the level of nutrition declines the actual performance difference would also decline. The breed association can crunch the numbers and get an actual weight value for 0; but the odds of consistently repeating that number in a real world herd is so slight as to be a practically pointless exercise.

 

[Tod Dague]

Is that how they verify EPDs or are they just taking the model as gospel for EPDs?

Common sense tell me that each time a calf weighs within the estimated range of the EPD's previously calculated, the accuracy goes up.

What else would you call it besides verification?

What about the ones that don't? Where did the model for epds come from? Did they get the commercial breeders to weigh every calf at birth, weaning, and yearling, heights, scrotum measurements, ultrasound data, and everything else involved to gather the information when EPDs were being developed? The last I herd it wasn't some simple calculation, is subject to modification as new information comes in from ongoing research, and the models look a great deal different then the originals. The point was that the verification is coming from the ongoing research that is being done by the universities.

 

[MikeC]

Tod: What about the ones that don't?

Well, the ones that don't weigh within the parameters of the projected EPD's go against the accuracies of those being calculated.

Did they get the commercial breeders to weigh every calf at birth, weaning, and yearling, heights, scrotum measurements, ultrasound data, and everything else involved to gather the information when EPDs were being developed?

You know better than that.

The point was that the verification is coming from the ongoing research that is being done by the universities.

Are you sure that is all that is done for verification? Suppose I have a cow and bull that has no data recorded with the association. There can be no EPD calculation. I believe I am right in saying that the angus folks won't register and calculate EPD's on a calf from parents that have no EPD's.

The EPD models are much more sophisticated and than I can fathom, but it only makes sense to me that they will only be as accurate as the data reported is.

 

[Frankie]

]What about the ones that don't? Where did the model for epds come from? Did they get the commercial breeders to weigh every calf at birth, weaning, and yearling, heights, scrotum measurements, ultrasound data, and everything else involved to gather the information when EPDs were being developed? The last I herd it wasn't some simple calculation, is subject to modification as new information comes in from ongoing research, and the models look a great deal different then the originals. The point was that the verification is coming from the ongoing research that is being done by the universities.

When the Angus Assn started EPDs, they took all the BWs reported to the Assn in a particular year (I think 1976), averaged them and called that 0. They did the same with WW and YW. I can't speak for any other breed, but Angus EPDs are, indeed set on actual weights and measures. A lot has happened since EPDs were first created, lots of research and millions of data reports, but EPDs are still a good tool for evaluating breeding stock.

 

[Frankie]

All the EPD is telling me is that typically if I had 50 calves with a YEPD of +100 in a drylot with 50 calves with a YEPD of +0 then at an adjusted 365 day wt the +100 calves should normally weigh on AVERAGE 200 lbs more (the EPD is the breeding value of the animal so you multiply that by 2 too get the PREDICTION of actual performance for that individual). If I had the same calves on good forage the +100 calves would definitely be bigger than the +0 calves. Theoretically, even there they would be +200 lbs heavier though as the level of nutrition declines the actual performance difference would also decline. The breed association can crunch the numbers and get an actual weight value for 0; but the odds of consistently repeating that number in a real world herd is so slight as to be a practically pointless exercise.

No. an animal's EPD does not indicate his performance. It's indicates his progeny's performance. And they should only be used to COMPARE animals. If bull A has a YW EPD lf 100, you would EXPECT his progeny to weigh 100 more pounds as a yearling than if you bred those same cows to a bull with a YW EPD of 0. EPDs never, ever predict what an animal will weigh. A bull's EPD cannot take into account managent or the cow's influence on the calf.

 

[Brandonm2]

Actually you are wrong, Frankie EPDs can and ARE used to GUESS at individual performance (though are somewhat more accurate if used to predict a group's performance). The EPD is simply half of the old EBV values (true breeding values) they used too calculate and still do in some countries like Australia. You can be reasonably assured that a potbelly load of Angus steers with an avg EPD yearling wt value of +100 are going to grow out better than a potbelly load with an avg EPD yearling wt value of 50. How accurate is that +100 lb (double the +50#) estimate???? I wouldn't bet on it being too close; but I would bet that the big growthy calves with the really high EPDs will noticably outweigh those smaller calves with the average EPDs when both of em are fed the same ration for 100 days in a feedlot. The most common calculation of individual performance we actually DO is when you look at a heifer's birth wt EPD and then try too find a bull that will moderate that number too increase the likelihood that the first calf will be born with the least amount of trouble. Again I don't know how high the individual accuracy of that calculation is (I bet it is not close to perfect); but over time and a lot of heifers I do think you get a lower average birth wt by doing that.

 

[gberry]

the EPD is the breeding value of the animal so you multiply that by 2 too get the PREDICTION of actual performance for that individual

If this is true, do you add the values of the 2 parents to get the predicted value of the calf?

 

[Victoria]

the EPD is the breeding value of the animal so you multiply that by 2 too get the PREDICTION of actual performance for that individual

If this is true, do you add the values of the 2 parents to get the predicted value of the calf?

Add them together then divide by 2, rounding up if necessary. This is called an expected average progeny value and is used by the Canadian Angus site as a mating predictor. However this will not give you the actual EPD's of the calf and they may (probably will) vary from these results.

 

[jnowack]

Well, the ones that don't weigh within the parameters of the projected EPD's go against the accuracies of those being calculated.

Mike

Are you talking about the accuracy of the epd model that they are using or an individual animal's accuracy?

 

[MikeC]

Well, the ones that don't weigh within the parameters of the projected EPD's go against the accuracies of those being calculated.

Mike

Are you talking about the accuracy of the epd model that they are using or an individual animal's accuracy?

The "Accuracy Value" of EPD's.

At first they are called "Interim", correct? I presume this accuracy value is simply calculated by averaging the sire and dam. A guess, for lack of a better term.

As more data is input, they are actually are given an "Accuracy Value".

Is the model itself adjusted from time to time?

I presume it is, using figures derived from input data.