EPD's What Do They Mean?

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Jeanne - Simme Valley":1xmy7mpl said:
Frankie":1xmy7mpl said:
Good morning, Ollie. Good to see you up and about. :D As some breeds scramble to stay afloat, they've turned to EPDs to save them. In my opinion, not all breed's EPDs are as reliable as they should be. And there are always producers looking for the "magic bullet" to fix their breeding operation. Some of them have selected EPDs as that magic bullet. But as has been said on these pages time and again, they're another tool to be used to select a bull.

Aren't you glad that the Simmental breed STARTED the EPD's?? :D :D Actually, they started out being ??EBV?? (?estimated breeding value??) too long ago can't remember. We used to be the only breed with CE epd's - both direct & maternal, and ALL Simmental's have EPD's.

Simmentals started EPDs? Strange. I read on the old Cattle Pages site years ago that the Charloais breed started EPDs. I don't really care. We both know which breed made them the important part of the beef industry that they are today. It doesn't seem that many years ago that one breed was calling them "Computerized Bologna" and now they have EPDs.

All Simmentals may have EPDs, but how reliable are they?
 
Frankie wrote:
Simmentals started EPDs? Strange. I read on the old Cattle Pages site years ago that the Charloais breed started EPDs. I don't really care. We both know which breed made them the important part of the beef industry that they are today. It doesn't seem that many years ago that one breed was calling them "Computerized Bologna" and now they have EPDs.

All Simmentals may have EPDs, but how reliable are they?
Code:
Boy, you are a pompous little heifer aren't you?

And which breed made them "the important part of the beef industry" Frankie? Like we don't know which one you are thinking of.    :roll:  :roll:  :roll: 

All EPD calculation "Computer Models" are basically the same which gives them all equal "Reliability". The only element that would make the reliability of any breed's less "Reliable" would be the input data.

Would you like to go out on a limb and accuse a breed of turning in false data?     :mad:  :mad:  :mad:  :mad:  :mad: 

YOU, YOUNG LADY ARE ONE OF THE REASONS THAT SOME PEOPLE HATE THE ANGUS BREED. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE COWS!!!     :shock:  :shock:  :shock:
 
Jeanne - Simme Valley":2h41rlf9 said:
According to the 2005 Across-breed EPD Table, a +20 Angus would be equal to a +10 Simmental.
But in our breed +10 Simmental is a LOT OF MILK. Breed average is 5.6 - which is plenty of milk.

Looking through the Genectic Horizons Sire Directory and was surprised to see Meyer 734 only had a 3.2 Milk. He is a legend as far as making Cows, but has way bellow average Milk epd. Noticed your bull was one of the top Milk producers of the bunch, congrats!
 
MikeC":3fj6lg8z said:
Frankie wrote:Simmentals started EPDs? Strange. I read on the old Cattle Pages site years ago that the Charloais breed started EPDs. I don't really care. We both know which breed made them the important part of the beef industry that they are today. It doesn't seem that many years ago that one breed was calling them "Computerized Bologna" and now they have EPDs.

All Simmentals may have EPDs, but how reliable are they?

Boy, you are a pompous little heifer aren't you?

Go on, Mike, get it out of your system. You're bashing Angus at every opportunity, here's a chance to really let go. Calling names doesn't make you smart, tough or right.

And which breed made them "the important part of the beef industry" Frankie? Like we don't know which one you are thinking of. :roll: :roll: :roll:

We all know which breed made EPDs the important part of the industry that they are. When we started raising Angus we were laughed at for being so stupid to believe numbers could help someone raise cattle. But the Angus Assn belived in EPDs, promoted them, and showed they worked for commercial cattlemen. Because of that most every other breed has been forced to compute EPDs. Yes, that's my opinion. If you can show I'm wrong, please do so. I can learn.

All EPD calculation "Computer Models" are basically the same which gives them all equal "Reliability". The only element that would make the reliability of any breed's less "Reliable" would be the input data.

The input data is what makes some breed's EPDs less reliable, in my opinion. The Angus Assn has millions of records on their database. You will have a hard time convincing me that a half blood animal's EPDs will be as reliable as a purebred animal. But if you think you have some data, not from a breed assn, that might change my mind, put it out here.

Would you like to go out on a limb and accuse a breed of turning in false data? :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

No. I assume all breeders are putting accurate data out there. The problem lies, IMO, with accepting data from half blood animals right alongside purebred animals. We see lots of articles posted here about heterosis. So a crossbred calf, half breed X half breed Y, will possibly outperform a straight bred breed X calf. I have doubts that the EPDs on either of those animals is reliable, the crossbred calf because it's a crossbred animal with no data in it's background, the straightbred calf because the data used to create his EPDs includes crossbred data.

YOU, YOUNG LADY ARE ONE OF THE REASONS THAT SOME PEOPLE HATE THE ANGUS BREED. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE COWS!!! :shock: :shock: :shock: [/code]
[/quote]

First, hating me or my breed is a waste of time. Neither of us is going away soon. Most people that don't like the Angus breed feel that way because it's successful. Some people would like to go on with the cattle business as it used to be.
 
Frankie, I think you're wrong about most people hating Angus because the breed is successful. I think the main reason people dislike the breed is because anything that isn't black is inferior to the black. I've got Angus blood in my herd but they are not black so to anybody into Angus, my cattle don't match up to theirs. I guess I must be stupid for trying to breed an animal with outstanding growth to go along with carcass quality.
 
novaman":1346pj4s said:
Frankie, I think you're wrong about most people hating Angus because the breed is successful. I think the main reason people dislike the breed is because anything that isn't black is inferior to the black. I've got Angus blood in my herd but they are not black so to anybody into Angus, my cattle don't match up to theirs. I guess I must be stupid for trying to breed an animal with outstanding growth to go along with carcass quality.

Do you hate Angus?
 
Frankie":2lz2v7vo said:
novaman":2lz2v7vo said:
Frankie, I think you're wrong about most people hating Angus because the breed is successful. I think the main reason people dislike the breed is because anything that isn't black is inferior to the black. I've got Angus blood in my herd but they are not black so to anybody into Angus, my cattle don't match up to theirs. I guess I must be stupid for trying to breed an animal with outstanding growth to go along with carcass quality.

Do you hate Angus?
Probaly just jealous of them, and disgusted that he doesn't have enough Angus in his cowherd.
 
la4angus":2fti9174 said:
Frankie":2fti9174 said:
novaman":2fti9174 said:
Frankie, I think you're wrong about most people hating Angus because the breed is successful. I think the main reason people dislike the breed is because anything that isn't black is inferior to the black. I've got Angus blood in my herd but they are not black so to anybody into Angus, my cattle don't match up to theirs. I guess I must be stupid for trying to breed an animal with outstanding growth to go along with carcass quality.

Do you hate Angus?
Probaly just jealous of them, and disgusted that he doesn't have enough Angus in his cowherd.
If I hated Angus why would I have the blood in my herd? The point I'm trying to make is simple. Angus have good carcass quality but they lack in the growth department. I crossbreed with Gelbvieh to get the best of both worlds and I've been happy with my results. However, the whole black hide thing gets blown way out of proportion and I, for one, am tired of the ignorance. I just love how much people enjoy trying to gang up on the guy who gives his opinion. Especially when that opinion dissed nobody but simply tried to explain his side of the story.
 
aplusmnt":3x9dqyef said:
Jeanne - Simme Valley":3x9dqyef said:
According to the 2005 Across-breed EPD Table, a +20 Angus would be equal to a +10 Simmental.
But in our breed +10 Simmental is a LOT OF MILK. Breed average is 5.6 - which is plenty of milk.

Looking through the Genectic Horizons Sire Directory and was surprised to see Meyer 734 only had a 3.2 Milk. He is a legend as far as making Cows, but has way bellow average Milk epd. Noticed your bull was one of the top Milk producers of the bunch, congrats!
Thanks, his latest EPDs puts him in the top 1% for CE BW, Stayability, and the new $ Index (API), and still top 25% for milk. Marb & REA top 30%. I'm proud!!!
 
Frankie":30czzgbu said:
Jeanne - Simme Valley":30czzgbu said:
Frankie":30czzgbu said:
Good morning, Ollie. Good to see you up and about. :D As some breeds scramble to stay afloat, they've turned to EPDs to save them. In my opinion, not all breed's EPDs are as reliable as they should be. And there are always producers looking for the "magic bullet" to fix their breeding operation. Some of them have selected EPDs as that magic bullet. But as has been said on these pages time and again, they're another tool to be used to select a bull.

Aren't you glad that the Simmental breed STARTED the EPD's?? :D :D Actually, they started out being ??EBV?? (?estimated breeding value??) too long ago can't remember. We used to be the only breed with CE epd's - both direct & maternal, and ALL Simmental's have EPD's.

Simmentals started EPDs? Strange. I read on the old Cattle Pages site years ago that the Charloais breed started EPDs. I don't really care. We both know which breed made them the important part of the beef industry that they are today. It doesn't seem that many years ago that one breed was calling them "Computerized Bologna" and now they have EPDs.

All Simmentals may have EPDs, but how reliable are they?
Wow, Frankie, did someone step on your toes??? I was not being nasty to you and don't think I ever have. Are you that DEFENSIVE about your breed?
Yes, I guarantee you Simmental STARTED epd's and was the only breed that REQUIRED performance data to get registration papers.
And, you are very aware of the intriquite(sp?) formulas used to produce epd's. Cornell is more than aware of the DIFFERENCE between 50% & PB cattle. That is taken into consideration. You are so quick to point out how their formulas take into consideration about the environment, don't you think they are smart enough to also adjust for % of cattle? AND, Cornell is the only one producing ACROSS-BREED epd's - AND, sit back & wait - something very new is about to come out of Cornell.
I am offended at how indignant a response you made. As far as I'm concerned - SIMMENTAL was & STILL IS the biggest promoter of the EPD's. And as I said, SIMMENTAL have EPD's on ALL animals. I don't care if some are 1/2 bloods or purebreds or fullbloods, they have the capability to issue ACCURATE epd's on all of them.
WHY don't Angus issue EPD's on all their animals? Is it a matter of whether the producer turns in certain data? If that is right, what % of Angus cattle have EPD's (data turned in).
MikeC is correct - your attitude turns people off of YOUR breed. You normally have very accurate, INFORMATIVE, information to share with all of us, why not stick to facts that you are knowledgeable about and don't BAD MOUTH other breeds. I have NEVER bad mouthed Angus.
I think we should all sit back & settle down.
 
Jeannie:

Just one point, and I do appreciate your standing up on this whole thread.

Georgia does do across breed EPD now, too. Simmental was first, and is still the biggest, but Georgia started them a few years ago, too.

Not a point to beat you with, but just to let you know.

I appreciate how well you can stand up for what you believe, w/o bashing.

I like to bash, but I think that Angus guys need it :D . They just don't get it any other way.


mtnman
 
mtnman":yfxd6m0y said:
Jeannie:

Just one point, and I do appreciate your standing up on this whole thread.

Georgia does do across breed EPD now, too. Simmental was first, and is still the biggest, but Georgia started them a few years ago, too.

Not a point to beat you with, but just to let you know.

I appreciate how well you can stand up for what you believe, w/o bashing.

I like to bash, but I think that Angus guys need it :D . They just don't get it any other way.


mtnman
THANKS!
 
mtnman":3m9avrbv said:
I like to bash, but I think that Angus guys need it :D . They just don't get it any other way.


mtnman

I'm sure that the Angus guys find it easy to shrug off your bashing as they're tucking their premium dollars into their wallets.
 
Jeanne said:

Wow, Frankie, did someone step on your toes??? I was not being nasty to you and don't think I ever have. Are you that DEFENSIVE about your breed?

I asked the question: Are all Simmental EPDs reliable. You didn't answer, MikeC attacked me personally. I will defend Angus and CAB when they are bad mouthed, yes.

Yes, I guarantee you Simmental STARTED epd's and was the only breed that REQUIRED performance data to get registration papers.

That's fine. It was put out by, it seems like, an officer of the Canadian Char Assn years ago that Chars started EPDs. I guess he was wrong, or my memory is faulty. And I thought Red Angus was the first breed to require performance information to get registration papers? I guess I should pay more attention to these bits of trivia. Sorry.

And, you are very aware of the intriquite(sp?) formulas used to produce epd's. Cornell is more than aware of the DIFFERENCE between 50% & PB cattle. That is taken into consideration. You are so quick to point out how their formulas take into consideration about the environment, don't you think they are smart enough to also adjust for % of cattle? AND, Cornell is the only one producing ACROSS-BREED epd's - AND, sit back & wait - something very new is about to come out of Cornell.

Jeanne, it will be very difficult for you to convince me that if I take a bald faced, red tigerstripe cow and breed her to an Breed X bull, the half blood bull calf will have reliable EPDs. Now if you can show me something from Cornell that shows me different, I'd be very interested in reading it. I can't wait to see what's coming out of Cornell. Please take time to post it here.

I am offended at how indignant a response you made. As far as I'm concerned - SIMMENTAL was & STILL IS the biggest promoter of the EPD's. And as I said, SIMMENTAL have EPD's on ALL animals. I don't care if some are 1/2 bloods or purebreds or fullbloods, they have the capability to issue ACCURATE epd's on all of them.

I'm sorry you took offense. I asked a question. You didn't respond, MikeC bashed me personally. Let's see something to back up your claim about accurate EPDs on halfbloods.

WHY don't Angus issue EPD's on all their animals? Is it a matter of whether the producer turns in certain data? If that is right, what % of Angus cattle have EPD's (data turned in).

Angus doesn't issue EPDs on all their animals because we take EPDs very seriously. No, it's not a matter of whether the producer turns in data or not. That's not a requirement. They only issue EPDs when there's enough data on the database to provide what they consider reliable EPDs. AAA registered almost 325,000 calves last year. I'd guess most of them had EPDs, but not all and, IMO, they shouldn't have EPDs if there's not information available to make them reliable.

MikeC is correct - your attitude turns people off of YOUR breed. You normally have very accurate, INFORMATIVE, information to share with all of us, why not stick to facts that you are knowledgeable about and don't BAD MOUTH other breeds. I have NEVER bad mouthed Angus.

I have to laugh at this. If someone refuses to use Angus because of my attitude, they're probably not serious about their cattle. I'm not bad mouthing your breed. I asked a question that apparently struck a nerve. You have bad mouthed Angus. The post that comes to mind quickly is your post about CAB not requireing any Angus genetics at all. Shocked! you were, as if that was a big dark, dirty secret the Angus Assn was hiding from the world when it's right there in the USDA specs.

I think we should all sit back & settle down.

I'm supposed to sit back and let this post go? Not likely. I didn't bash your breed. I asked a question about how reliable Simmental EPDs are. MikeC and now you jump on my case without providing anything to answer my question.
 
Some of us could tell you some things about your breeds data, but you wouldn't believe it anyway, frankie. It seems you are more interested in propaganda than reality.

lakading, what a joke. Lot's of folks are wise to the fact that Angus lack som much ribeye and have so much outside fat that if you cross them with Continentals, they get at least 2x as much CAB premiums as straightbred Angus.

You and frankie would both be well served by learning about some facts, rather than listening to your own breed promotional material.

mtnman
 
mtnman":bpob700o said:
Some of us could tell you some things about your breeds data, but you wouldn't believe it anyway, frankie. It seems you are more interested in propaganda than reality.

lakading, what a joke. Lot's of folks are wise to the fact that Angus lack som much ribeye and have so much outside fat that if you cross them with Continentals, they get at least 2x as much CAB premiums as straightbred Angus.

You and frankie would both be well served by learning about some facts, rather than listening to your own breed promotional material.

mtnman

If I got 2x CAB I'd be over 100%.
 
mtnman":2wddeglf said:
Some of us could tell you some things about your breeds data, but you wouldn't believe it anyway, frankie. It seems you are more interested in propaganda than reality.

Choke,:lol:, choke. I am interested in reality. The reality that I see is black cattle sell for higher prices than other colored similar cattle.

lakading, what a joke. Lot's of folks are wise to the fact that Angus lack som much ribeye and have so much outside fat that if you cross them with Continentals, they get at least 2x as much CAB premiums as straightbred Angus.

Lots of talk, no data to back it up. Sure some Angus lack ribeye, so do some Herefords, Beefmaster, and Continental cattle, especially those that have been bred to imitate Angus. The CAB premium is paid per pound by the packer for beef that qualifies as CAB. So where do you get "least 2x as much CAB premiums..."? They couldn't care less if it's straight Angus or crossbred.

You and frankie would both be well served by learning about some facts, rather than listening to your own breed promotional material.
mtnman

As usual, you'd be better served if you had some data to back up your claims.
 
mtnman":2zcejso0 said:
You and frankie would both be well served by learning about some facts, rather than listening to your own breed promotional material.
mtnman

Frankie":2zcejso0 said:
As usual, you'd be better served if you had some data to back up your claims.
I have said it before and will say it again. mtnman is stuffed as full of sht as a Thanksgiving turkey
 
Frankie wrote:
We both know which breed made them the important part of the beef industry that they are today. It doesn't seem that many years ago that one breed was calling them "Computerized Bologna" and now they have EPDs.

All Simmentals may have EPDs, but how reliable are they?
Maybe you have a mouse in your pocket that agrees with you, but I sure don't.
That's fine. It was put out by, it seems like, an officer of the Canadian Char Assn years ago that Chars started EPDs. I guess he was wrong, or my memory is faulty. And I thought Red Angus was the first breed to require performance information to get registration papers? I guess I should pay more attention to these bits of trivia. Sorry.
Yes, you are wrong about these "bits of trivia".

Jeanne said:

Quote:
Wow, Frankie, did someone step on your toes??? I was not being nasty to you and don't think I ever have. Are you that DEFENSIVE about your breed?

Frankie wrote:
I asked the question: Are all Simmental EPDs reliable. You didn't answer.
Yes, I did answer that. "Cornell is more than aware of the DIFFERENCE between 50% & PB cattle. That is taken into consideration. You are so quick to point out how their formulas take into consideration about the environment, don't you think they are smart enough to also adjust for % of cattle? " And I don't need to PROVE that statement anymore than you needed to prove yours. We both have pride in our breeds, but that doesn't mean either breed is superior to the other. I happen to like Angus cattle, and Simmental sure compliments them greatly.


Angus Assn belived in EPDs, promoted them, and showed they worked for commercial cattlemen. Because of that most every other breed has been forced to compute EPDs.
You're timing & info is a little off. Since we were the FIRST with EPD's and strongly believed in them, and promoted them, and showed how they worked for everyone including the commercial cattleman, that's when the Angus Assn. decided to jump on the band wagon & produce their own.

You will have a hard time convincing me
I wouldn't bother. You are convinced that the Angus EPD's are reliable - just because you believe in your breed.
and, I'm convinced that the Simmental EPD's are reliable. I do not have to prove anything to you. I am very confident in my breed association.
 

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