EPD single trait rejection?

[talltimber]

This is an Angus yearling I'm looking at. I would appreciate any input you all may have concerning what you think the epd's are telling us. I have my ideas, but want to run this past those of you who have studied them and may be able to make me think in a direction I have not thought of. My old cows are generally not what I would call very large frame, my guess is 1400 lb average or maybe a little more, but keep a lot of condition year round. I'm thinking a bcs 6 or 7 plus on most all of them, with only supplement on cold, wet, ice/snow winter days (probably more because I feel sorry for them). I am understocked though right now. I am thinking a little more grow to my calves would not be a bad thing, but I am not going to feed cows when I get fully stocked. They are going to have to make it on grass during the year. I am looking for a young bull to put on my yearling heifers, to eventually move in to the main bull position. Thoughts?

$B is 121.57

 

[WalnutCrest]

While there are others here who know EPDs much better than me, that milk EPD sure looks like it's going to be expensive --- expensive either in terms of a lower stocking rate than you otherwise could achieve or feed costs.

 

[BC]

WalnutCrest was right on the milk EPD. The bull yearling you are looking at is a +32, breed average for Angus is +23. That additional milk comes at a costs. If you are wanting cows that maintain the condition scores you mentioned without supplementation you need less milk or better forages.

 

[bse]

1st off I can't read any numbers even with my glasses.
For me I need pedigree along with EPDs to make decisions, way to many unknowns with what your saying. They are saying the milk is to high, if your cows need more milk then that's the selection you want. For heavier calves if you sell at weaning a higher weaning weight, sell as yearlings higher YW. Id pick the most important thing I want to accomplish and work from there.
You said you wanted to use him as heifer bull then later as herd bull, I wouldn't use a heifer bull on mature cows in a commercial operation, you give up some growth, and maybe to much LBW stacked doing that in my opinion. It depends on number of animals if it's practical for 2 types of bulls. There are bulls out there that can do both, not many with higher acc that are not in bull stud.

 

[gizmom]

The milk EPD is probably why he has a -26.00 on EN. All the other numbers look really good. Does your cow herd need more milk? If you need to bump up the milk in your herd this bull would sure help without sacrificing any other traits. There is a point where you can get to much milk, but no one but you knows all of the details of your individual herd.

Gizmom

 

[midTN_Brangusman]

I agree with Barry, buy or lease you a heifer bull to cover them then replace him next year with a terminal bull with high WW & YW.

 

[talltimber]

My cow (some with a little cross a ways back) numbers, epd's, would have to be assumed as I have but a few registered two yr olds, the rest are commercial angus/cross. I thought the numbers on this bull would be a good balance to increase my growth a little, but still work on first calf heifers (both ced, bw, and weight of the bull) and still be an increase in growth over what I have to help the cows maybe. I currently have a CC&7 son that, iirc, milk is in the mid 20's, bw 3.3. His calves do pretty good I think and he has little calves. Calving issues with the cows are almost non existent and I like it that way.
How much does, say, an epd difference of 8 make? If my cows are assumed 24 and his number is 32? My cows would pull his number down correct, or how does that work? So the heifers I keep out of him may wind up in the upper 20's?

 

[Supa Dexta]

Yes, they just split the difference on paper - as for what the real world throws, that would remain to be seen.

 

[elkwc]

After having some registers black Angus with a milk EPD of 19 and seeing how little they milk I would take one with
a 32 before I would take anymore with a 19.

 

[Ky hills]

After having some registers black Angus with a milk EPD of 19 and seeing how little they milk I would take one with
a 32 before I would take anymore with a 19.

Elkwc, I am in agreement with your observation. In my small herd of registered Angus, their average milk EPD is 25, with a range of 22-27. They appear to milk at a balanced level, and wean pretty respectable sized calves. A little higher milk production would be fine for here, but I definitely wouldn't want them milking any less.

 

[kdhansen]

Accuracy on this bull's papers are low. In order to get a better picture of what he can throw, look at his sire and dam's epd's and actual numbers (BW, WW, YW, etc). He could throw as high or higher, or as low or lower, as what his sire's and/or dam's epd's reflect.

 

[jklii]

If you want to keep his daughters and run your cattle without supplemental feed at full stocking rate the 32 Milk and - $26 $EN are not the numbers you want.

 

[City Guy]

-26.00 EN is pathetic. What good are the other EPDs if the calves are going to eat up all the profits?

 

[Ebenezer]

Low accuracy = pig in a poke.

Traits seem extreme. Is he from a line, herd or efforts to breed extreme cattle or merely an outlier? One is more stable than the other.

 

[talltimber]

I am not ignoring you Ebenezer, I just don't know the answer for certain. I haven't researched his sire's farm strategy. This bull's farm is trying to tame it down some it seems. I just like his looks, and wondered how he might work. I'm looking at him again this week.

Not enough numbers to justify two bulls for separate jobs. My old bull did both, but now is heavy for yearlings (and sometimes cows). The young bull I buy will be for heifers this fall and be a backup in case something happens to the old bull but eventually move into the main bull position if he works out, and nothing happens to him. I have not AI'd yet, so that is something I have thought about as well. Just don't have a lot of time for observing for heats, as that appears is a necessity. I haven't studied the ai process a whole lot yet, so I am not considering that at the current time.

 

[Herefords.US]

All you folks that think that you can "split hairs" in choosing between unproven virgin bulls by using low accuracy EPDs need to look at this chart:

https://www.angus.org/nce/accuracy.aspx

and UNDERSTAND what it shows!

Of course, if you are breeding your cows "on paper" rather than in the pasture, carry on!

 

[talltimber]

Much more possible variance than I anticipated, but also a possibility of being dead nuts on. Point taken.

What's your current practice in choosing, assuming the prettiest is not the correct answer? (not being a wise-azz)

 

[WalnutCrest]

Much more possible variance than I anticipated, but also a possibility of being dead nuts on. Point taken. What's your current practice in choosing, assuming the prettiest is not the correct answer? (not being a wise-azz)

Can you answer Ebenezer's question from earlier in the thread?

<snip> Is he from a line, herd or efforts to breed extreme cattle or merely an outlier? One is more stable than the other.

The answer to your question is imbedded in the answer to his question.

 

[talltimber]

I would say it is at least more than a chance that his sire is not an outlier. It appears there are several in the pedigree that are high in milk and some negatives in EN. So, I would assume it would have to be intentional. The breeder of this young bull appears like he is bringing the milk/EN down by his mating, or is just a coincidence, I do not know his thoughts. If I were to assume, I would say he is. But the dam is still higher than average milk and a neg EN as well, just not as bad.

I am leery of the EN number, but the milk may average out to just help me a little in the growth area. I don't think the other numbers are neither high nor too low, bw is average so I can't be stacking low bw, unless the cows are below average which I do not know other than my registered heifers.

The ones recommending a growth bull on a cow herd, I know his accuracy's are low, but if they were accurate I don't think being in the top 20/15% in ww and yw would be too bad for a do all bull? The bw must be the average at 50%?

 

[Herefords.US]

Much more possible variance than I anticipated, but also a possibility of being dead nuts on. Point taken.

What's your current practice in choosing, assuming the prettiest is not the correct answer? (not being a wise-azz)

I'm not sure MY selection criteria will help you much, since I am a registered breeder who's trying to develop a linebred maternal line:

Cows: I select for calf structure and growth, with milking ability being the largest contributor to calf growth. That, balanced against their ability to stay in good shape and rebreed. I have found EPDs to be totally useless in cow selection. Too much variation can occur in the milk EPD and all the other EPDs are too low accuracy as well. I seen too many folks lament that the best cow in their herd has some of the WORST EPDs. If you look at the accuracy of the EPDs on cows, even those that have had several calves, you can understand why there is such a significant variation. Ratios are better indicators of cow performance...and what you can see with your eye. I don't get too high on the best performing heifers at weaning age and I will occasionally cull one for being too big. Outliers, either way, are potential trouble. I have found the best cows often come from the heifers that were back in the pack and maybe even a little underperforming as calves. So I keep a lot of heifers and cull liberally after their first and second calves.

Bulls: Phenotype and pedigree first, then if they pass that test, I look at their in herd ratios and actual weights and scans when possible. By pedigree, I particularly mean knowing as much as possible about a bull's dam and seeking the opinion of their owner and/or breeder. Learning about a bull's dam is very important if you are planning on keeping his daughters in your herd. I have been very lucky to buy some older proven bulls in the past and I had already seen their daughters in production and I had a record of what their daughters would do, as far as ratios.

In my latest UNPROVEN bull purchase, this month, I had seen his sire, his maternal grandsire, and all of his maternal great grandparents in person. He was an ET calf, so he has no BW, WW, or YW ratios. I bought him from a video and seeing his actual weights and scan measurements. He was delivered last week and I am happy with him, but I won't get too excited until I see a dozen of his calves on the ground. I am planning on returning to a timed AI program this fall, so he will see cleanup duty and only about 30-40% of the calves will be his.