EPA Expands Power

[Anonymous]

QUOTED Margnome:"Administrative law is the body of law that governs the activities of administrative agencies of government. Government agency action can include rulemaking, adjudication, or the enforcement of a specific regulatory agenda. Administrative law is considered a branch of public law. As a body of law, administrative law deals with the decision-making of administrative units of government (for example, tribunals, boards or commissions) that are part of a national regulatory scheme in such areas as police law, international trade, manufacturing, the environment, taxation, broadcasting, immigration and transport. Administrative law expanded greatly during the twentieth century, as legislative bodies worldwide created more government agencies to regulate the social, economic and political spheres of human interaction. " Zirlottkim "Administrative law expanded greatly during the twentieth century" and look how corrupt an administer in current govt can be with no repercussions. Well maybe a few hearings and some verbal lashings by a few just to get their names on "tabloid news" but nothing else. Different set of rules for "administers maybe? Do as your told, not as "we" in govt does. All that means to me is more govt control & less LIBERTY.

I appreciate and respect your philosophy on administrative law.

What would you propose to put in its place to protect society from the adverse practices that damage our country and our property? As an example, to prevent your neighbors from discharging harmful substances into a creek that your cows drink from.

Local agencies creating their own rules with local public input without dictation from Washington D.C. That would be a good start. Almost all local agencies, School systems, local Police Departments, Natural Resource Departments, Building Inspection....almost any local agencies are led like a puppet on a string from The Federal Government. Its all done by threats of with holding funding. Federal taxes are collected, sent to Washington and trickle a potion back to States as long as they go by generic guidelines that are "suggested" for state and local agencies. If they refuse the guidelines, funding is with held.

 

[Margonme]

QUOTED Margnome:"Administrative law is the body of law that governs the activities of administrative agencies of government. Government agency action can include rulemaking, adjudication, or the enforcement of a specific regulatory agenda. Administrative law is considered a branch of public law. As a body of law, administrative law deals with the decision-making of administrative units of government (for example, tribunals, boards or commissions) that are part of a national regulatory scheme in such areas as police law, international trade, manufacturing, the environment, taxation, broadcasting, immigration and transport. Administrative law expanded greatly during the twentieth century, as legislative bodies worldwide created more government agencies to regulate the social, economic and political spheres of human interaction. " Zirlottkim "Administrative law expanded greatly during the twentieth century" and look how corrupt an administer in current govt can be with no repercussions. Well maybe a few hearings and some verbal lashings by a few just to get their names on "tabloid news" but nothing else. Different set of rules for "administers maybe? Do as your told, not as "we" in govt does. All that means to me is more govt control & less LIBERTY.

I appreciate and respect your philosophy on administrative law.

What would you propose to put in its place to protect society from the adverse practices that damage our country and our property? As an example, to prevent your neighbors from discharging harmful substances into a creek that your cows drink from.

Local agencies creating their own rules with local public input without dictation from Washington D.C. That would be a good start. Almost all local agencies, School systems, local Police Departments, Natural Resource Departments, Building Inspection....almost any local agencies are led like a puppet on a string from The Federal Government. Its all done by threats of with holding funding. Federal taxes are collected, sent to Washington and trickle a potion back to States as long as they go by generic guidelines that are "suggested" for state and local agencies. If they refuse the guidelines, funding is with held.

Perhaps that has merit. There would be some issues with regard to contaminates that cross political boundaries. For example, your local government would not have authority over a facility in another County or state that was emitting air contaminates. In the end, your proposal is still based on the concept of public administrative law. So you have not satisfied your intention of rolling back the wheels of public administrative law.

Laws and regulations are never pleasant. The more complex our society has become the more difficult it is to implement laws and regulations to protect property, the environment, public health and the right to be safe and pursue happiness without compromising our freedoms.

Each of us should be protected from the actions of someone else that degrades our property, compromises our health or diminishes the quality of our lifestyle.

I have watched my neighbor walk out into his front yard, cross the road between his front yard and my pasture and dump litter on my land. Some of his litter has concerned me because the litter has contents that might harm one of my calves. I deal with it by waiting until he goes back inside and then go pick it up out of my pasture and properly dispose of it. Aggravating but not worth taking action against him. But let's suppose he walks across the road and dumps a liquid waste high in arsenic concentration. It runs into the creek where my cattle drink from small pools and 7 of my cows die of arsenic poisoning. Without public administrative law, I would be forced to hire an attorney, pay all the cost of collecting chemical evidence and spend countless hours and dollars collecting for my damages. Public administrative law performs those functions for me.

 

[Anonymous]

Sounds to me like your neighbor has something against you. No society has ever been or ever will be perfect. Government & laws has its place in civilized society but in the words a famous man "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." Obviously, people with that line of thinking is NOT in the majority of our country today. That scares me for my kids sake. I wonder how small their degree of freedom will be.

 

[Margonme]

Sounds to me like your neighbor has something against you. No society has ever been or ever will be perfect. Government & laws has its place in civilized society but in the words a famous man "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." Obviously, people with that line of thinking is NOT in the majority of our country today. That scares me for my kids sake. I wonder how small their degree of freedom will be.

Most people are fickle. They rail against too much regulation until something happens to them, then they rail that the government doesn't protect them. Example, FREE MARKETS. People preach about letting free markets work. Until free markets affect the market they make their living from. Then they want the government to protect them.

It all is futile. You can please some of the people some of the time but you can never please all the people all the time. You and I are wasting out time worrying about it.

 

[True Grit Farms]

Sounds to me like your neighbor has something against you. No society has ever been or ever will be perfect. Government & laws has its place in civilized society but in the words a famous man "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." Obviously, people with that line of thinking is NOT in the majority of our country today. That scares me for my kids sake. I wonder how small their degree of freedom will be.

I sure don't feel free to do as I please anymore. Checks and balances are good but why do we need the EPA? If you do something wrong and it affects someone else, use the justice system to fix the problem. That's the way this country was set up to work. But that was back when the government worked for the people, now the people work for the government.

 

[Bestoutwest]

These agencies and judges that legislate from the bench are bypassing our system of checks and balances. It's called tyranny.

And we have no one to thank but ourselves. Do you like what's happening in Washington? If yes, vote for the guy that's in there already. If not, vote for the other person. We've gotten into this pattern of making career politicians out of everyone that they aren't scared about losing their position, and do whatever the heck it is they want.

 

[Bestoutwest]

Most people are fickle. They rail against too much regulation until something happens to them, then they rail that the government doesn't protect them. Example, FREE MARKETS. People preach about letting free markets work. Until free markets affect the market they make their living from. Then they want the government to protect them.

Bingo! It's all fun and games until YOUR job goes over to China.

 

[bball]

I must confess, this has been one of the more interesting topics on CT in a while.(atleast to me) Some very intelligent points made by some intelligent folks.

All I can add is selfishness... leads to complacency...leads to apathy...leads to dependence...leads to bondage. I hate to keep harping on it, but it is so clear as to the state of this nation, that I just can't ignore it..and how we got here. I been thinking for some time now on how to break the cycle. Is it like the infection cycle? Break one link and it stops it. Or, is it too late now and the lots have been cast? Can we spin it backwards and undo one of the steps? I honestly do not know. It feels like we are part of a huge grinding machine that is slowly chewing this country up; one decent person at a time. Regardless of race, sex, age or education.
I'm a glass half full guy (believe it or not) and solutions oriented, make it a win-win, type of guy., but as a father, I worry dearly for my offspring.

 

[Margonme]

Sounds to me like your neighbor has something against you. No society has ever been or ever will be perfect. Government & laws has its place in civilized society but in the words a famous man "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." Obviously, people with that line of thinking is NOT in the majority of our country today. That scares me for my kids sake. I wonder how small their degree of freedom will be.

I sure don't feel free to do as I please anymore. Checks and balances are good but why do we need the EPA? If you do something wrong and it affects someone else, use the justice system to fix the problem. That's the way this country was set up to work. But that was back when the government worked for the people, now the people work for the government.

Obviously, there is a history to that question. Believe it or NOT, the EPA was created by a Republican President, Richard Nixon. But perhaps the best way to answer your question is with a picture. Here is what caused the populace of the United States to cry out - we need protection from ruthless companies that will sacrifice our health and our nation for a dollar:

Do they abuse their authority?
Are they effective?
Are they constitutional?
ETC ETC. All fair questions. But the American populace demanded that someone put greedy corporations in their place. Maybe the honeymoon is long over. But I will bet you my farm if environmental law was repealed today, in one year, the American public would demand relief.

 

[greybeard]

Folks, I have no horse in this race. I am retired from federal civil service. But I have no incentive to defend any agency.

You can believe whatever you want. You can promote whatever you want. You can propagate misinformation until the cows come home. As long as my annuity check keeps coming, I am as happy as body can be.

and yet..

 

[Margonme]

Folks, I have no horse in this race. I am retired from federal civil service. But I have no incentive to defend any agency.

You can believe whatever you want. You can promote whatever you want. You can propagate misinformation until the cows come home. As long as my annuity check keeps coming, I am as happy as body can be.

and yet..

GB, I guess you see my posts as a defense. Maybe you are correct. My intention is to provide on opposing view. Lord knows, I am the only one coming forward to fill that void. Otherwise, this thread would be nothing more than what TexasBred so eloquently describes as a circle jerk. :lol:

 

[bball]

GB, I guess you see my posts as a defense. Maybe you are correct. My intention is to provide on opposing view. Lord knows, I am the only one coming forward to fill that void. Otherwise, this thread would be nothing more than what TexasBred so eloquently describes as a circle jerk. :lol:

Hold on cowboy! Hurley stepped in a few times for an opposing view... there in lies one of the problems. We focus so much attention on being right or wrong that we lose sight of truth and facts; consequently, learning nothing in the process.
Greed and selfishness made EPA a necessary entity. Unfortunately, with its creation comes more bureaucracy; leading to additional greed, corruption. Why was the EPA allowed to grow into the all powerful being that it has become? Complacency! Too many people sitting on their hands many years ago, while the beast was being fed and grown. That complacency was followed by apathy- i dont really care enough to do anything because it doesnt hurt me (yet). Too late, now that many folks have seen jobs leave and theyre hurt by EPA overreach, you achieve dependence upon the same govt that helped push your jobs overseas. When the govt can no longer support all of her dependents, you will achieve critical mass; namely, bondage. Then we will have the reality of 'those who work will eat'; while those who dont, well,....
The reality is the EPA was started with a rightful purpose, but like most govt agencies, it was not balanced and utilized with integrity and honor (like those leading in D.C.) and its power and abuse of balance and common logic has run amuck... same as the other scary govt agency, the IRS. Without balance, wisdom, or integrity of those folks directing and guiding these agencies, you get the imbalanced, overreaching, fear mongering agencies we have now.

 

[Margonme]

GB, I guess you see my posts as a defense. Maybe you are correct. My intention is to provide on opposing view. Lord knows, I am the only one coming forward to fill that void. Otherwise, this thread would be nothing more than what TexasBred so eloquently describes as a circle jerk. :lol:

Hold on cowboy! Hurley stepped in a few times for an opposing view... there in lies one of the problems. We focus so much attention on being right or wrong that we lose sight of truth and facts; consequently, learning nothing in the process.
Greed and selfishness made EPA a necessary entity. Unfortunately, with its creation comes more bureaucracy; leading to additional greed, corruption. Why was the EPA allowed to grow into the all powerful being that it has become? Complacency! Too many people sitting on their hands many years ago, while the beast was being fed and grown. That complacency was followed by apathy- i dont really care enough to do anything because it doesnt hurt me (yet). Too late, now that many folks have seen jobs leave and theyre hurt by EPA overreach, you achieve dependence upon the same govt that helped push your jobs overseas. When the govt can no longer support all of her dependents, you will achieve critical mass; namely, bondage. Then we will have the reality of 'those who work will eat'; while those who dont, well,....
The reality is the EPA was started with a rightful purpose, but like most govt agencies, it was not balanced and utilized with integrity and honor (like those leading in D.C.) and its power and abuse of balance and common logic has run amuck... same as the other scary govt agency, the IRS. Without balance, wisdom, or integrity of those folks directing and guiding these agencies, you get the imbalanced, overreaching, fear mongering agencies we have now.

I stand corrected. Hurley did lend a hand.

Leave the IRS out of this. Let's deal with EPA first.

I spent 23 years working inside the EPA. I say this objectively, there is more than a fair dose of extremism in the criticism they get. I know- no one is going to accept that from a former EPA employee. So be it.

It does not matter anyway. Until the laws that EPA is authorized to enforce are repealed, the EPA haters will live with it.

IMPORTANT POINT - FOR every American complaining that the EPA over steps it's boundaries, there is an American complaining that EPA is not doing enough. In response to every Record of Decision I prepared for public comment; for every comment that we went too far, I received 5 comments that our proposed action was insufficient to protect public health and the environment.

When I was the Remedial Project Manager for the Butte Priority Soils and Silver Bow Creek/Lower Area One Operable Units in Butte, Montana, I presided over at least 30 public meetings. In every case, the over-whelming public comment was that our corrective enforcement actions did not go far enough to punish the companies and protect public health and the environment.

 

[bball]

GB, I guess you see my posts as a defense. Maybe you are correct. My intention is to provide on opposing view. Lord knows, I am the only one coming forward to fill that void. Otherwise, this thread would be nothing more than what TexasBred so eloquently describes as a circle jerk. :lol:

Hold on cowboy! Hurley stepped in a few times for an opposing view... there in lies one of the problems. We focus so much attention on being right or wrong that we lose sight of truth and facts; consequently, learning nothing in the process.
Greed and selfishness made EPA a necessary entity. Unfortunately, with its creation comes more bureaucracy; leading to additional greed, corruption. Why was the EPA allowed to grow into the all powerful being that it has become? Complacency! Too many people sitting on their hands many years ago, while the beast was being fed and grown. That complacency was followed by apathy- i dont really care enough to do anything because it doesnt hurt me (yet). Too late, now that many folks have seen jobs leave and theyre hurt by EPA overreach, you achieve dependence upon the same govt that helped push your jobs overseas. When the govt can no longer support all of her dependents, you will achieve critical mass; namely, bondage. Then we will have the reality of 'those who work will eat'; while those who dont, well,....
The reality is the EPA was started with a rightful purpose, but like most govt agencies, it was not balanced and utilized with integrity and honor (like those leading in D.C.) and its power and abuse of balance and common logic has run amuck... same as the other scary govt agency, the IRS. Without balance, wisdom, or integrity of those folks directing and guiding these agencies, you get the imbalanced, overreaching, fear mongering agencies we have now.

I stand corrected. Hurley did lend a hand.

Leave the IRS out of this. Let's deal with EPA first.

I spent 23 years working inside the EPA. I say this objectively, there is more than a fair dose of extremism in the criticism they get. I know- no one is going to accept that from a former EPA employee. So be it.

It does not matter anyway. Until the laws that EPA is authorized to enforce are repealed, the EPA haters will live with it.

IMPORTANT POINT - FOR every American complaining that the EPA over steps it's boundaries, there is an American complaining that EPA is not doing enough. In response to every Record of Decision I prepared for public comment; for every comment that we went too far, I received 5 comments that our proposed action was insufficient to protect public health and the environment.

When I was the Remedial Project Manager for the Butte Priority Soils and Silver Bow Creek/Lower Area One Operable Units in Butte, Montana, I presided over at least 30 public meetings. In every case, the over-whelming public comment was that our corrective enforcement actions did not go far enough to punish the companies and protect public health and the environment.

I honestly do not doubt your objectivity on this topic Ron. I actually appreciate an insiders view. Is it extremism or a fear of an agency with the ability to alter your life and livelihood? Hence the comparison to IRS, but I digress at your request.

Your statement of the 1:5 ratio I also have no difficulty believing. I actually am surprised its not more. No secret that very pro environmentalist folks are extremely more active and proactive in voicing there concerns while less environmentally concerned folks tend to be less active(until after the fact, reactive). This makes my case about complacency and apathy. What the average guy is afraid of is the imbalance that appears to be associated with EPA. You offered a great photo example of why its necessary. But the average fella who wants to fill in a pond or drain some low ground shouldnt have to fear. I have familybthat works at a major steel mill in the state. EPA on site. Said family member believes its all hogwash. EPA sits in truck all day watching. They leave at 5, sun goes down and the mill blows off the stacks in the dark after they leave. He whas worked shift work out there for years and a man of his word. No reason to lie. He believes money is exchanged and all is well. They dont look to hard and said mill isnt overt with their behaviors, and thats that.

 

[Anonymous]

I stand corrected. Hurley did lend a hand.

Leave the IRS out of this. Let's deal with EPA first.

I spent 23 years working inside the EPA. I say this objectively, there is more than a fair dose of extremism in the criticism they get. I know- no one is going to accept that from a former EPA employee. So be it.

It does not matter anyway. Until the laws that EPA is authorized to enforce are repealed, the EPA haters will live with it.

IMPORTANT POINT - FOR every American complaining that the EPA over steps it's boundaries, there is an American complaining that EPA is not doing enough. In response to every Record of Decision I prepared for public comment; for every comment that we went too far, I received 5 comments that our proposed action was insufficient to protect public health and the environment.

When I was the Remedial Project Manager for the Butte Priority Soils and Silver Bow Creek/Lower Area One Operable Units in Butte, Montana, I presided over at least 30 public meetings. In every case, the over-whelming public comment was that our corrective enforcement actions did not go far enough to punish the companies and protect public health and the environment.[/quote]
A quick google search reveals why the public was so concerned. Dollar signs usually bring out many "concerned citizens".

 

[Clodhopper]

GB, I guess you see my posts as a defense. Maybe you are correct. My intention is to provide on opposing view. Lord knows, I am the only one coming forward to fill that void. Otherwise, this thread would be nothing more than what TexasBred so eloquently describes as a circle jerk. :lol:

Hold on cowboy! Hurley stepped in a few times for an opposing view... there in lies one of the problems. We focus so much attention on being right or wrong that we lose sight of truth and facts; consequently, learning nothing in the process.
Greed and selfishness made EPA a necessary entity. Unfortunately, with its creation comes more bureaucracy; leading to additional greed, corruption. Why was the EPA allowed to grow into the all powerful being that it has become? Complacency! Too many people sitting on their hands many years ago, while the beast was being fed and grown. That complacency was followed by apathy- i dont really care enough to do anything because it doesnt hurt me (yet). Too late, now that many folks have seen jobs leave and theyre hurt by EPA overreach, you achieve dependence upon the same govt that helped push your jobs overseas. When the govt can no longer support all of her dependents, you will achieve critical mass; namely, bondage. Then we will have the reality of 'those who work will eat'; while those who dont, well,....
The reality is the EPA was started with a rightful purpose, but like most govt agencies, it was not balanced and utilized with integrity and honor (like those leading in D.C.) and its power and abuse of balance and common logic has run amuck... same as the other scary govt agency, the IRS. Without balance, wisdom, or integrity of those folks directing and guiding these agencies, you get the imbalanced, overreaching, fear mongering agencies we have now.

I stand corrected. Hurley did lend a hand.

Leave the IRS out of this. Let's deal with EPA first.

I spent 23 years working inside the EPA. I say this objectively, there is more than a fair dose of extremism in the criticism they get. I know- no one is going to accept that from a former EPA employee. So be it.

It does not matter anyway. Until the laws that EPA is authorized to enforce are repealed, the EPA haters will live with it.

IMPORTANT POINT - FOR every American complaining that the EPA over steps it's boundaries, there is an American complaining that EPA is not doing enough. In response to every Record of Decision I prepared for public comment; for every comment that we went too far, I received 5 comments that our proposed action was insufficient to protect public health and the environment.

When I was the Remedial Project Manager for the Butte Priority Soils and Silver Bow Creek/Lower Area One Operable Units in Butte, Montana, I presided over at least 30 public meetings. In every case, the over-whelming public comment was that our corrective enforcement actions did not go far enough to punish the companies and protect public health and the environment.

The EPA in and of itself is not evil. I deal with them on a regular basis, as a public water supply operator. The ones I deal with are concerned, common sense guys who I respect. I also don't believe that anyone who is sensible denies that there needs to be some standards for industry, utilities, etc. However, Bball puts it better than I can, too many government agencies have too little accountability.

 

[Margonme]

Clodhopper, it is better for that to be stated by you than me. 90 % of my workmates were decent folks. I use 90 % because I don't want to look biased. I remember a few knuckle-heads but most were decent. Like industry, some people work harder and smarter than others. That pertains to EPA also.

Folks under 50 have no idea how serious contamination in the US was before the US EPA. For example, floating contaminates on the Ohio River were so bad, the river would catch fire and stop barge traffic.

Water contamination in this country was headed to the point that drinking water was at extreme risk. Air pollution was so bad in some cities that people had to leave their homes. Some plants burnt tires and lead batteries in their processing furnaces. The lead would fall out creating lead levels in residential yards so high that the children had mental illness.

 

[True Grit Farms]

Clodhopper, it is better for that to be stated by you than me. 90 % of my workmates were decent folks. I use 90 % because I don't want to look biased. I remember a few knuckle-heads but most were decent. Like industry, some people work harder and smarter than others. That pertains to EPA also.

Folks under 50 have no idea how serious contamination in the US was before the US EPA. For example, floating contaminates on the Ohio River were so bad, the river would catch fire and stop barge traffic.

Water contamination in this country was headed to the point that drinking water was at extreme risk. Air pollution was so bad in some cities that people had to leave their homes. Some plants burnt tires and lead batteries in their processing furnaces. The lead would fall out creating lead levels in residential yards so high that the children had mental illness.

We still have mental illness issues, drinking water issues and air quality issues, supposedly in this country. And we sure as heck don't need anymore government employees or agencies. And the IRS and EPA are tied together in a bunch of different ways. I agree that something needed to be done. I also feel the majority of the EPA employees are liberals and a threat to my way of life and take it as such. It's only a job to some, but it's my life that their screwing with.

 

[Margonme]

Clodhopper, it is better for that to be stated by you than me. 90 % of my workmates were decent folks. I use 90 % because I don't want to look biased. I remember a few knuckle-heads but most were decent. Like industry, some people work harder and smarter than others. That pertains to EPA also.

Folks under 50 have no idea how serious contamination in the US was before the US EPA. For example, floating contaminates on the Ohio River were so bad, the river would catch fire and stop barge traffic.

Water contamination in this country was headed to the point that drinking water was at extreme risk. Air pollution was so bad in some cities that people had to leave their homes. Some plants burnt tires and lead batteries in their processing furnaces. The lead would fall out creating lead levels in residential yards so high that the children had mental illness.

We still have mental illness issues, drinking water issues and air quality issues, supposedly in this country. And we sure as heck don't need anymore government employees or agencies. And the IRS and EPA are tied together in a bunch of different ways. I agree that something needed to be done. I also feel the majority of the EPA employees are liberals and a threat to my way of life and take it as such. It's only a job to some, but it's my life that their screwing with.

Yes. 95% lean hard left. No doubt about that. I was assigned to the Denver Office from 2005 until 2010. There was a group of about 10 of us that frequently went out after work on Friday. I was the only voice for the conservative side. It got passionate. Much like here, I can stand my ground even when the odds are against me. But 9 to 1 can get difficult and some of these folks were pretty good in a debate. I tend to get loud when the debate gets exciting. I was asked to leave a couple times by the establishment where we were gathered. Maybe once did anyone leave mad and that was not over politics. I miss that group.

 

[Margonme]

Hold on cowboy! Hurley stepped in a few times for an opposing view... there in lies one of the problems. We focus so much attention on being right or wrong that we lose sight of truth and facts; consequently, learning nothing in the process.
Greed and selfishness made EPA a necessary entity. Unfortunately, with its creation comes more bureaucracy; leading to additional greed, corruption. Why was the EPA allowed to grow into the all powerful being that it has become? Complacency! Too many people sitting on their hands many years ago, while the beast was being fed and grown. That complacency was followed by apathy- i dont really care enough to do anything because it doesnt hurt me (yet). Too late, now that many folks have seen jobs leave and theyre hurt by EPA overreach, you achieve dependence upon the same govt that helped push your jobs overseas. When the govt can no longer support all of her dependents, you will achieve critical mass; namely, bondage. Then we will have the reality of 'those who work will eat'; while those who dont, well,....
The reality is the EPA was started with a rightful purpose, but like most govt agencies, it was not balanced and utilized with integrity and honor (like those leading in D.C.) and its power and abuse of balance and common logic has run amuck... same as the other scary govt agency, the IRS. Without balance, wisdom, or integrity of those folks directing and guiding these agencies, you get the imbalanced, overreaching, fear mongering agencies we have now.

I stand corrected. Hurley did lend a hand.

Leave the IRS out of this. Let's deal with EPA first.

I spent 23 years working inside the EPA. I say this objectively, there is more than a fair dose of extremism in the criticism they get. I know- no one is going to accept that from a former EPA employee. So be it.

It does not matter anyway. Until the laws that EPA is authorized to enforce are repealed, the EPA haters will live with it.

IMPORTANT POINT - FOR every American complaining that the EPA over steps it's boundaries, there is an American complaining that EPA is not doing enough. In response to every Record of Decision I prepared for public comment; for every comment that we went too far, I received 5 comments that our proposed action was insufficient to protect public health and the environment.

When I was the Remedial Project Manager for the Butte Priority Soils and Silver Bow Creek/Lower Area One Operable Units in Butte, Montana, I presided over at least 30 public meetings. In every case, the over-whelming public comment was that our corrective enforcement actions did not go far enough to punish the companies and protect public health and the environment.

I honestly do not doubt your objectivity on this topic Ron. I actually appreciate an insiders view. Is it extremism or a fear of an agency with the ability to alter your life and livelihood? Hence the comparison to IRS, but I digress at your request.

Your statement of the 1:5 ratio I also have no difficulty believing. I actually am surprised its not more. No secret that very pro environmentalist folks are extremely more active and proactive in voicing there concerns while less environmentally concerned folks tend to be less active(until after the fact, reactive). This makes my case about complacency and apathy. What the average guy is afraid of is the imbalance that appears to be associated with EPA. You offered a great photo example of why its necessary. But the average fella who wants to fill in a pond or drain some low ground shouldnt have to fear. I have familybthat works at a major steel mill in the state. EPA on site. Said family member believes its all hogwash. EPA sits in truck all day watching. They leave at 5, sun goes down and the mill blows off the stacks in the dark after they leave. He whas worked shift work out there for years and a man of his word. No reason to lie. He believes money is exchanged and all is well. They dont look to hard and said mill isnt overt with their behaviors, and thats that.

bball, the voice of moderation.

It would take too much time to explain the mechanism of why regulations with good intentions get lost out in the weeds.

Briefly, laws and regulations are basically generic. They are written so one size fits all. But out in the field where the rubber meets the road, you run into cases where things get cloudy. The regulatory agent is mindful of their duties and also mindful of their performance evaluation. Most regulatory agents deal with this by simply sticking to the letter of the law. Which is what most supervisors demand that they do because they don't want their agents drifting too far away from the mission. The result is often a case of over-kill.