Entering performance data

[Herefords.US]

You can't know who to trust until you start dealing with them. Like I said, the EPD's are a place to start, but you do need to see the actual numbers on what you are about to buy. In a case like this person creating groups based on how they perform, they could be off 100 or 200 pounds from what you are really looking for, but they may have high ratios because they were put in a group of lousy performers.

In Line, means they should at least be close to average in their worst categories, and better than in several catagories, else why would you want to buy them in the first place?

I had a lot of experience with the old TPR program, and I came to put a lot of trust in actual performance records and ratios gathered on a within herd basis - and making selection decisions from them. I do think trust can be placed in the EPDs of the highly proven/high accuracy Hereford bulls as well, but that's a really small percentage of the Hereford bulls being used.

On unproven bulls and 99% of Hereford cows/heifers, I don't think their "raw" EPDs mean much at all -other than as a "mythical marketing tool" to those who think they're meaningful. I think I get much more out of the information available on their performance pedigree than what their EPDs show. Add to that the actual data, input from the breeder/owner, as well as knowledge accumulated elsewhere, and raw EPDs become a minor consideration.

I might put a little more faith in the raw EPDs of certain Line 1 cattle, where a significant amount of data has been accumulated over time. But I've also seen Line 1 bulls' EPD numbers move significantly.

To those of you who think raw EPDs have reliability, pick 5 to 10 young Hereford bulls out from the champions and sale toppers of this spring's shows and sales, record their EPDs now, then record them again each time when the adjustments are made - twice a year in the spring and fall -usually around the first of the year and midsummer. After 5 years, when you've recorded the changes, see if YOU still have faith in the reliability of raw EPDs.

I do think EPD accuracy would improve with time and the increased use of proven bulls via AI, but DNA profiling will probably replace it long before much improvement in accuracy occurs via accumulated measurement-related data.

George

 

[bigag03]

Because of different management styles and environments, raw data means nothing. However, knowing that the EPDs are going to move as a more data is collected, most of the time the ratios will tell you which direction the EPDs will move. For example, a bull with an above average WW EPD but ratioed 95% in his contemporary group...there is a very good probability that the "good" WW EPD will not hold. This tends to hold true for other traits as well.

 

[Herefords.US]

Because of different management styles and environments, raw data means nothing. However, knowing that the EPDs are going to move as a more data is collected, most of the time the ratios will tell you which direction the EPDs will move. For example, a bull with an above average WW EPD but ratioed 95% in his contemporary group...there is a very good probability that the "good" WW EPD will not hold. This tends to hold true for other traits as well.

I agree with most of what you said - BUT! Raw data doesn't mean nothing! When used on an in-herd and contemporary group comparison basis, raw data and resulting ratios are very good tools for comparison. It's when you take it out of context and try to use raw data to directly compare with animals from different management styles and environments that it becomes much less useful.

George

 

[bigag03]

George, you just said the same thing I did. Raw data within a contemporary group is used to create ratios. Those ratios are very important and useful, however my point was that the raw data used to make the ratios (once you have the ratio) is useless because it is only valid within that contemporary group.

 

[alexfarms]

The original reason I made this post was because 2008 was the first calf crop that I had ever completely split my inbreds off from my outcross cattle, beginning at the birth wieght point. i had done some splitting in the past for different pastures and feed conditions and on some ww, but never completely from birth. I had some really small birthweight calves in 2008, due to several possiblities. One of my inbred heifers came back with yearling epds higher than that of her parents average and it caught my eye. I noticed she had a bw ratio of 125%, and I thought I must had entered the data wrong. No. She had an 85# bw that the analysis adjusted down...down?...1# and it ratioed at 125. This raised her yw epd 10# above the average of her parents. I hadn't expected bw alone to affect yw epd that much. All of my heifers had an average adjusted bw of 82#. This tells me the inbreds need to be entered completely separate from the outcross calves. This will raise the bw epds on my inbreds, so that is not exactly doing them a favor. But I'll bet it is going to be more accurate in the long run. Time will tell.

 

[RD-Sam]

If the calf had a ratio of 125, doesn't that mean the average calf in the group was about 69 pounds?