circlew
Well-known member
If pine needles were too toxic for grass to grow, there wouldn't be any pasture in my part of the world.
East Texas Pine to Pasture Conversion
- Thread starter Pineland
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Caustic Burno
Well-known member
Mine either.circlew":dme0oy0c said:
TexasBred":115ig1yg said:
It is a bypass protein-- and when feeding this: it pays to feed the poorest quality forage that one can find-- CRP hay, stalks, or whatever-- just enough to keep the rumen working...
I feed it, and so does tons of other people.
Here's an excerpt, with misspellings and all.. as I copy/ pasted here:
To the question at hand. I have my mill mix 50/50 soyhulls and ddgs. I then use thge ration balancer to determine needs. Thier is much less value to using soy hulls and ddgs if you have allfalfa or good grass hay. Then just feed an energy sorurce and mineral mix. The rue value of feeding these is with a poor roughage , suach as very mature grass hay, or corn stalks. I am talking 5 to 7 perecnt protein. Corn stalks has a TDN profile about the same as alfalfa, but has only 5 perecnt protein. Their for I can utilize the protein from the distillers. I could do thsi without the soyhulls, but ddgs is sticky and will not flow from a bulk bin if it sits in the sun for a few days, so I mix teh 2 to get flow. Bigger producers have commodity sheds to plt it in. I may convert an un used building, but for now have it blended. The soyhull also are very high in Calcium, which helps offset the high phos of the ddgs. DDgs is also from 8 to 10 percent fat, whih is high energy. aslo as no starch, so can not cause accidosios. Soyhulls are highly digestable and rapidly fermentable, ddgs are about 60 perecnt undegradable protein, which is used in the small intestine. The soyhulls are rapidly digested in the rumen, helps buffer the rumen, and in turn helps the digestablity of the slower digesting more fibrous corn stalks. Since thier is no starch in the ration, I have a very active rumen population of fiber digestors, which are differnt than starch digestors.Then thier is the accocative effect of feeding DDGS, which most agree is about a 10 perecnt improvemnt of utilization of nutrients from feeding this. Before the new NCR feed manual came out, most did not worry about bypass protein in sheep, only high producing dairy cattle. Now they relize that bypass protein may be much more important that before thought. Rumen degradable protein feeds the rumen bacteria. The rumen bacteria die and then pass into the small intestine, when they feed the animal(lean tissue growth, milk production , ect) With a lot of starch in the rumen, you do not have the fiber digestors, and the ph is to low. So you have to choose.Feed like a pig, High enegy ration with lower roughage, (fine with cheap engey and roughage) and sacrifice rumen health and perhaps the longevity. Or feed fiber base ration, and feed lower starch ration and buypass portein, Better utilization of roughaage, better rumen health and funtion, longer productive life . Enough about that.
I feed DDGS/soyhulls year round. I mix my mineral in with the feed, but they get no added phos. This ration is plenty high, so need no more. Aagin. grass has plenty of rumen protein, but none makes it pass the rumen. so the soyhull help buffer the rummen, slow down grass, the ddgs bypass teh rumen to add to lean growth.
The disccsion at the meeting to day, was to the fact, if your mommas loose wieght during lactaion, you are not feeding enough to produce the maximum milk that she is capable of. I aggree with that. Is this cheaper than corn and alfalfa hay. Maybe. Morrical stated that he would perfer 2nd cutting grass if he was tied to only 1 roughage source. However, it will change your whole mineral program as well. Again , if you have high quality hay, you need to SELL that hay and buy poor hay to make co products work. Here good hay is 180 to 200 a ton, grass or alfalfa, some poorer hay maybe as low as 100 and some less, . It works best with a TMR as Tiler uses, but I limit feed chopped roughage and hand feed the DDGS/soyhull, mineral mix, I belive Don free choices corns stalk bales and hand feed the mix as well.
TexasBred
Well-known member
Glad you explained that SBMP means "soyhulls". Thought for a minute the acronym mean soybean meal pellets. You were doing well until you said the above. It makes no sense at all to feed lower quality cheaper roughages in order to sell good hay and purchase and feed higher quality supplements even if one does contain rumen bypass protein and the other high in rumen degradeable protein. Rumen health can be maintained with good quality roughage alone with no need to purchase corn stalks are other alternatives that are extremely high in both ADF and NDF and energy levels that hardly register. And most folks cannot afford the facilities to utilize mixer wagons and TMRs and if they do I hope the go the extra little bit to have a more complete ration formulated and balanced for their use.
You're right-- I did stick in an M-- and not mean to, but meant it to be SBHP.
I think the basis behind selling the good hay- and feeding poor roughage-- is not overdoing it. The good hay protein is not bypass-- and so if you're feeding an 'overload' of both-- then you're going to overload the animal-- whereas feeding an 'overload' of just one-- should not.
I think the basis behind selling the good hay- and feeding poor roughage-- is not overdoing it. The good hay protein is not bypass-- and so if you're feeding an 'overload' of both-- then you're going to overload the animal-- whereas feeding an 'overload' of just one-- should not.
TexasBred
Well-known member
What kind of animal are you feeding?? freezer beef?? mature cows??? You cannot overfeed grass to breeding stock. They determine how much they need. That is how you grow "lean" beef as in "grass fed"...Feeding low quality hay with a high NDF does nothing but fill them full of undigestible fiber and serves no good purpose other than to make them feel full.kciD":wd7ls881 said:
kciD":2mp1k0rq said:
kciD may be you need to stock pile more grass. If you read back over agmantoo's threads you will learnt a lot, also srbeef who is grazing corn all winter.
There are stresses involved in changing feeds and associated losses of production.
I know that you may gain a cash-flow advantage from your feeding system, but if you calculated a lot of the unforeseen costs this is limited over time
This is not my direct feeding system-- just one that I know very well. The actual 'decision' maker-- is old and hard headed and stuck in ways...
At my place, I plan to feed hay less than 30 days each year, due to quality pasture and grazing techinques, and feed zero grains to mature animals.
At my place, I plan to feed hay less than 30 days each year, due to quality pasture and grazing techinques, and feed zero grains to mature animals.
TexasBred
Well-known member
Sounds more like a classroom discussion at the "U".kciD":st36audd said:
TexasBred":2flbkvxp said:
No, more like a grandpa who's stuck in his ways with pasture management-- but looking to save costs associated with feeding.
At my place is a youngster, who has to practice what he preaches every day-- in order to get people on board with him-- and be able to show that it does work.
TexasBred
Well-known member
kciD":qxu6ovxt said:
Listen to grandpa. He didn't get to be a grandpa and raise cattle all those years without doing a he77 of a lot right. I'm puttin' my money on the old man. :cowboy:
TexasBred
Well-known member
kciD":2a0jed1q said:
Nothing wrong with practicing what you preach. But be willing to change the sermon if necessary before you lose the whole congregation. ;-)
Douglas
Well-known member
Not unusual in the southeast to have pasture and pines together.
Silvopasture:
http://www.silvopasture.org/pdf_content ... ndbook.pdf
Silvopasture:
http://www.silvopasture.org/pdf_content ... ndbook.pdf
as long as you don't graze it too hard-- then they'll chew the valueable tree crop.
Most often in a silvapasture setting (I was a forestry major)-- the trees are planted to a set stocking desity-- which means not overcrowded- and as they mature-- they are even thinned less...
Most often in a natural forest type setting they are crowded...
When trees are crowded-- they produce shade, duh-- most species of desirable plants (grasses especially) are not shade tollerant, which means grows in 100% shade.
Sivlapasture works because the ground is not shaded--the trees are not dense- and as a result-- good stands of grasses and legumes can be maintained either for pasture or hay...
Most often in a silvapasture setting (I was a forestry major)-- the trees are planted to a set stocking desity-- which means not overcrowded- and as they mature-- they are even thinned less...
Most often in a natural forest type setting they are crowded...
When trees are crowded-- they produce shade, duh-- most species of desirable plants (grasses especially) are not shade tollerant, which means grows in 100% shade.
Sivlapasture works because the ground is not shaded--the trees are not dense- and as a result-- good stands of grasses and legumes can be maintained either for pasture or hay...
OP
OP
Pineland
Well-known member
Summer update
No lime put out yet. This is after a single pass of Remedy taking out the vast majority of sweetgum and tallow trees.
I am not sure what this is, but the cows are loving it. Any ideas?
No lime put out yet. This is after a single pass of Remedy taking out the vast majority of sweetgum and tallow trees.
I am not sure what this is, but the cows are loving it. Any ideas?
Jogeephus
Well-known member
kciD":nauzhbe9 said:
Then you should know this is not a correct statement. There are varying degrees of shade tolerance. (BTW - just one L in that word) Also, there are many plants that are beneficial to cattle that are not grasses and many do tolerate the shade.
Jogeephus
Well-known member
I haven't a clue Pineland. Sortof out of my geographical zone. Looks to be greening up nicely. Is that a sprig of bermuda in the picture on the bottom left corner in that "other stuff"?
Caustic Burno
Well-known member
Pineland from what I can tell by the picture looks to be young cane coming up. Cow's love it, they will destroy it through grazing eventually.
