East Texas Pine to Pasture Conversion

[Pineland]

Looking for some opinions on a few different routes to take in some pasture development. We recently clear cut ~80 acres of bottom land which is a sandy loam. The bottom land has some seasonably flooding (when we have rain). We have the ability control the amount of water we hold during these times.

We are currently clearing the land to have a somewhat suitable seedbed.
That being said we are running to crossroad where we will either need to pile and burn or mulch the left over debris from pine and hardwoods to put the carbon back in the soil? We are getting quotes from $350 to $450 per acre for mulching. We have already burned several large piles of debris already.

This soil is acidic, so I know we are going to have to add a lime and that amount will depend on the type of grass we put in.

Other factors to consider:

The land is a sandy loam bottom in east texas.
Converted Herd from SimiAngus to Brangus.
Our adjacent pastures were Bahia until this years drought. After significant irrigation, they reverted back to a common Bermuda Grass.
Have access to unlimited Chicken Litter.
Land was pasture 30 years ago; predominately Bermuda, Bahia and sericea Lespedeza.

Current Soil Sample from upper 40 acres - PH 5.2, P-19ppm, K-30ppm,Ca-163ppm, and Mg-33ppm.
Current Soil Sample from lower 40 acres- PH 5.1, P-10ppm, K-47ppm, Ca-299, and Mg-71ppm.

The objective is to bring this back into production and have find an equilibrium with inputs and production. So we have a low input option with bahia and a higher input option with Jiggs Bermuda. Given the current cost for inputs, what path would you take and why.

Option A- Bahia Grass and with limited lime and fertilize as needed.
Option B- Bahia/Dallis mix with lime and fertilize as needed.
Option C- Jiggs Bermuda with significant lime and fertilizer as needed.
Option D- Plant Pearl Millet this year and grass next year..
Option E- Other
To mulch or not to mulch.

Thanks in advance!

 

[B&M Farms]

I would go with the bermuda over bahia just for the higher yields per acre and higher carring capacity. I feel bermuda is more drought resistant than bahia also, especially after this last year. I can't see where your input costs would be higher on new ground with chicken manure other than having to sprig instead of seeding. If you have the means to remove stumps and burn whats left, I would not worry about mulching. The cost per acre doesn't sound unreasonale per acre compared to around here though.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Well your starting from where I did years ago.
You are going to wear the lime truck driver out .
Are you buying your lime from Farmer's in Jasper?
Best bet is lay down common bermuda as you will have pasture quick.
Coastal is not going to like the acidic creek bottom trust me as i have been to that rodeo.
All of the runoff or any flooding is going to be acidic, I actually put in a drainage sytem to get the water off that bottomland.
Bahia is going to take over anyway can't fight mother nature without a thick billfold.
There will be areas in that bottom bahia doesn't like and the bermuda will thrive.

 

[Pineland]

 

[Pineland]

Well your starting from where I did years ago.
You are going to wear the lime truck driver out .
Are you buying your lime from Farmer's in Jasper?
Best bet is lay down common bermuda as you will have pasture quick.
Coastal is not going to like the acidic creek bottom trust me as i have been to that rodeo.
All of the runoff or any flooding is going to be acidic, I actually put in a drainage sytem to get the water off that bottomland.
Bahia is going to take over anyway can't fight mother nature without a thick billfold.
There will be areas in that bottom bahia doesn't like and the bermuda will thrive.

Thanks for the response.
Unless things have changed, I will be getting my lime out of Center. We have alot of work ahead of us. We converted some upland several years ago, but this bottom land soil is more acidic.

 

[Pineland]

I would go with the bermuda over bahia just for the higher yields per acre and higher carring capacity. I feel bermuda is more drought resistant than bahia also, especially after this last year. I can't see where your input costs would be higher on new ground with chicken manure other than having to sprig instead of seeding. If you have the means to remove stumps and burn whats left, I would not worry about mulching. The cost per acre doesn't sound unreasonale per acre compared to around here though.

Thank you.

 

[Mid South Guy]

You may be able to get the ph up quicker than you think now that the pine trees are gone. Pine trees and decaying pine needles tend to make the soil very acidic. I would burn everything. Muching and mixing in the soil will just contribute more to your acid problem.

 

[B&M Farms]

You may be able to get the ph up quicker than you think now that the pine trees are gone. Pine trees and decaying pine needles tend to make the soil very acidic. I would burn everything. Muching and mixing in the soil will just contribute more to your acid problem.

Burning would be fine but mulching would also put a lot of organic matter back into a soil that should already be rich in organic matter(being its new ground). Anywhere pine trees grow well will probably need lime. Im not sure that they are a contributing factor to acidic soils, just that the grow well in them. Most of the pasture I have need lime at some time and have not seen a pine tree in at least 50 years.

 

[JSCATTLE]

I've been doing the same thing for the past 5 years . I have 80 acres in pasture and 130 still in clear cut. The 80 acres was planted in 14 year Old pines I had them cut and put into a chipper . After about 3 years I was able to disc the ground . Stumps were rotten . I recently bought a 205 hp timber mulcher . Should start next week clearing the rest . It's been a pain but I can see the light at the end of the tunnel now .

 

[Caustic Burno]

I've been doing the same thing for the past 5 years . I have 80 acres in pasture and 130 still in clear cut. The 80 acres was planted in 14 year Old pines I had them cut and put into a chipper . After about 3 years I was able to disc the ground . Stumps were rotten . I recently bought a 205 hp timber mulcher . Should start next week clearing the rest . It's been a pain but I can see the light at the end of the tunnel now .

That light will be holes for a lot of years, that a tractor tire will disappear in for the next twenty years. The land I pushed the timber over and burned was way ahead of the logged land. Dam sure hasn't been half the headache.
Wore a Massey 135 out hauling dirt with a dirt scoop and filling holes on ground out stumps that rot underground for years. If you ever have to rebuild that 135 engine it only takes 183 revolutions of the crank to hit top dead center.

 

[agmantoo]

Is the chicken litter from broilers or from layer chickens. Layer litter will bring the PH up due to the calcium in the feed.

 

[JSCATTLE]

I'll be happy to get the stumps ground do I can bush hog and spray . I plan to wait about 5 more years and root rake the entire place . With a dozer . The part of the stumps sticking out of the ground are rotten . I've hit several mowing and knocked them down flush with the ground . The part I have in pasture I've already filled in the holes . The trees were about 8 inches across and the stumps rotted out in about 3 years . I ran the disk over it several times put 400 lbs to the acre quick lime and when it drys up I have the guy scheduled to lime this spring . Rye grass and clover is growing well . I'm having a hard time finding an economical seed company to order from . If anyone has any suggestions .

 

[Caustic Burno]

You had saplings, try pines over 30 inches in diameter. Those stumps gave a D-9 a fit with a shear blade and they are still rotting out after 20 years. I got a sweet gum I left in the bottom cause it is 15 feet around it by tape. That one didn't get here yesterday. Old growth timber will give you a fit best way I found is cut it with a hydroaxe
and come back and double shear it with a D-9 putting the shear blade about a foot under ground.

 

[bird dog]

"economical seed company". Thats an oxymoron isn't it? Try Turner seed in Breckenridge. They can ship pallet quantities by motor freight for about $100.

 

[Jogeephus]

Don't get in a hurry and don't spend unneccessary money clearing the land. If it were me, I'd burn it then run an offset harrow across it twice. Lime it good and this spring broadcast millet on it. Next fall, broadcast rye and fertilize and lightly harrow. Next spring, harrow and drill millet and bahia with a two box drill. Graze the millet and the next spring you will have a bahia pasture. Give it time and watch the stumps and when all the debris is well rotted and stumps are gone convert it to whatever you want. That's how I do it and I spend less in clearing the land than you are considering spending on mulching it.

 

[Pineland]

Don't get in a hurry and don't spend unneccessary money clearing the land. If it were me, I'd burn it then run an offset harrow across it twice. Lime it good and this spring broadcast millet on it. Next fall, broadcast rye and fertilize and lightly harrow. Next spring, harrow and drill millet and bahia with a two box drill. Graze the millet and the next spring you will have a bahia pasture. Give it time and watch the stumps and when all the debris is well rotted and stumps are gone convert it to whatever you want. That's how I do it and I spend less in clearing the land than you are considering spending on mulching it.

This has pretty much the method we have used in the past. However I got a mulching quote this weekend that works out to about $ 140 per acre to grind stumps and left over debris (essentially mow the area in the photos). The proof will be in the pudding, but this could be a game changer. The cost will go up on our rougher areas, but we can put ~ 40 acres into production pretty quickly at those rates.

 

[Jogeephus]

Would like to see some pictures as you progress. Good luck.

 

[Pineland]

This is the progress we have made in a weeks worth of clearing with our tractor's root rake/grapple.

 

[Pineland]

This is one of our previous pine to pasture conversions on an upland site after about 2 years of clearing using a Case 850, Tractor front end loader, and harrow disc.

This is the spring of year three of the same site.

 

[apical meristem]

Did you finish picking up limbs, roots and sticks by hand or with a root rake?
Ah, I see you used a root rake on a tractor. Did you have problems with flat tires while you were raking?

How did you burn off the wood piles? After you burned the wood piles a few times, what did you do with the dirt in the piles with the burnt logs?