Dung Beetles

[Chuckie]

After posting about the aerators, Jerry 27150 brought to my attention on how dung beetles break up the manure piles by eating the fly larve and burying the manure. This creates a cleaner pasture for the cattle to graze and a better environment for the grass to utilize the nitrogen below the surface of the soil.
The articles say that most of the nitrogen is lost when the piles remain on top of the surface.
The articles that I have read, lists the wormer that will not kill the beetles is one that contains the ingedient "Moxidecton." Cydectin Pour on is the only one I can find that contains this agent.
It also stated that you should worm the cattle after the temps are too low for the beetles to be out. I am wondering if you shouldn't worm with the Cydectin in the spring, then after a killing frost going into the winter and the temps lower, use Eprinex. By then, the beetles have gone.
Does anyone else work around the beetles to keep them alive in the pastures? I would like to know what practices others use to make this work and yet keep the cattle healthy and free of parasites as much as possible. Has anyone else come up with another wormer that is safe for the beetles?

 

[EIEIO]

I worm with Cydectin in the spring and Ivomec after usually the second hard freeze.

As far as I know Cydectin is the only wormer out there that promises not to kill the dung beetles.

J

 

[milesvb]

We use Cydectin and worm in the spring.

 

[Chuckie]

EIEIO and milesvb, with this practice, do you see the dung beetles in your pastures during summer months?

 

[jt]

I worm with Cydectin in the spring and Ivomec after usually the second hard freeze.

As far as I know Cydectin is the only wormer out there that promises not to kill the dung beetles.

J

worming that way, do you have dung beetles in your pasture?

thanks

jt

 

[milesvb]

EIEIO and milesvb, with this practice, do you see the dung beetles in your pastures during summer months?

Yes, they've been dissecting cow patties for awhile now.

 

[jt]

i almost tried cydectin once, but it didnt get good reviews on these boards at one time and if i remember correctly, it doesnt kill liverflukes..

i guess there is no one perfect wormer, you just have to settle on one..

i dont know anything about the life cycle of a dung beetle... if i used cydectin next spring, would they show up pretty quick, or does it take a while for them to get worked in??

i guess i am just rambling out loud here, but i ask that because i was just wondering about rotating between the ivomec and cydectin from year to year... ???
that way i would have dung beetles every other year :lol:


jt

 

[milesvb]

i almost tried cydectin once, but it didnt get good reviews on these boards at one time and if i remember correctly, it doesnt kill liverflukes..

i guess there is no one perfect wormer, you just have to settle on one..

i dont know anything about the life cycle of a dung beetle... if i used cydectin next spring, would they show up pretty quick, or does it take a while for them to get worked in??

i guess i am just rambling out loud here, but i ask that because i was just wondering about rotating between the ivomec and cydectin from year to year... ???
that way i would have dung beetles every other year :lol:


jt

I'm just speculating, but I would think if they have been wiped out by systemic wormers it would take a couple years for the population to reestablish.

 

[EIEIO]

I like to rotate my wormers on my cattle just like the horses but I'll be the first to admit that I'll usually just worm only once a year and in the early spring with Cydectin. Not the best management practice in the world as I know internal parasites can cause a loss in weight gain.

Whenever I've used Ivomec I have used it after at least the second hard freeze. Something to consider is your winters compared to mine.

After I've used Ivomec I'm always sure to use the harrow on the fields before the grass comes on.

So in short I'll say it's like every 2-3 years that I'll use Ivomec and I've never had a loss of dung bettles in the spring. All my neighbors run cattle as well and I don't really know their worming practices but if they don't worm at all it will help out the dung beetle population on my farm. Lots of folks out there who still don't believe in worming every year silly as it sounds.

J

 

[TheBullLady]

I think the dung beetles prefer a certain type of soil. A friend of mine that has sandy soils has all kinds of them, but I don't have any in the blacklands.

They are nifty creatures! I can watch them for hours at my friends place. Of couse, she thinks I'm easily entertained. :cboy:

 

[Dusty Britches]

After naively using rabon blocks for a year, our dung beetles seem to have diminished some. Either that, or I don't look at cow patties that much anymore.

I do use a rotational worming program that my vet and I designed. I use Cydexin in Spring, Safeguard in Summer, Ivomec in late fall. I started this last June and I mean to tell you - what a difference! My cows and calves have literally zero flies. None. My neighbor's cows broke into my hay pasture and while moving them back, I noticed they were blanketed with flies. So, now I know my program is working.

But, back to the dung beetles. I really haven't paid much attention. I should go look for them this weekend.

 

[jerry27150]

chuckie, if you have a good crop of dung beetles, you won't have any place for the worms to grow either. any vet will tell you that after two years of age most cattle acquire an immunity to worms. university of mo. cattleman said they used to spend a lot of money worming the whole herd just because a few cows were thin. then he figured it would be cheaoer to sell the cows that couldn't handle the worms. he also said that you should watch your cows for which ones the horn flies like the best & breed away from their line. he found some cows are loved by flies & others aren't. if i worm any, it is one that gets thin for some reason other than a fast growing calf. then i use cydectin. chemical co. make big money convincing people they need all this stuff. ever wonder how our grandparents cattle lived

 

[Chuckie]

jerry27150, I know a man that never worms his cattle, and they look as healthy as any herd that I have seen. I am not saying that they have no worms, but they don't look to be suffering from any problems. They are slick and fat. I would say that you are probably right to check and see if the cattle are infested before worming. I am used to just worming when the time is right. I think I will check and see what is going on with the herd next time I think it needs to be done. If they aren't showing any signs, then I'll wait. I'll worm with Cydectin if they need it.
Do cattle always show some sign of worms in the manure under a microscope? Do you know what amount of infestation is considered normal if there is such a thing?
I remember seeing the dung beetles a lot when I was a kid. Of course I would look for them. Seems there was always a mound of dirt crumbles around the manure like something was burrowing through it from underneath. After reading about them, there are different kinds of dung beetles. Seems the pile would disintegrate. These are called the "nesters." They just hang around the edges and under the pile. Then you have the ones that pair up and roll up a "love ball," and go off to be alone for their honeymoon. These are the "rollers." It says some of these beetles ride on the tails of the animals waiting for a fresh pile.
The article said that you could lose up to 10% of an acre just to the cattle not grazing close to the manure piles. The dung beetles work the piles down, reducing the amount of area that is avoided by the cattle. And not only do they reduce the piles, they make the pasture more nutrient rich from burying the manure underneath.
I found several articles that pretty much said the same thing. Here is one article that seemed to cover it the best.
http://www.attra.org/attra-pub/dungbeetle.html

 

[jerry27150]

chuckie, the old man never did anything to his cattle & they were the healtiest & wildest you ever seen. never wormed any of mine til i moved to mo. asked an old vet about worming some when i first started farming on my own & he said all develop an immunity to worms by the time they are two, so not to waste my money. old vet i use now says the same thing. another old vet later when i started buying feeder cattle told me if they looked healthy don't bother worming. i am sure all cattle will carry some worms, but most cattle they do not bother. dung beeltles are something i learned about in the last three years & they are about the only thing i use now. i have less flies now than when i sprayed & used ivomec. my pastures seem to produce more than they ever have, with a lot of earthworms now. they make it hard for flies & worms to survive in the manure. i may use cydectin on a few steers now sometimes, but not too often. i have studied most of those sites also. i am one who is not afraid to ask higher up people for advice & if i have a problem i may even get help from universities. quite a few years ago company came out with some bacteria to make corn silage ferment faster. some guys were using it, so i asked dick adams of penn state if it would help. he said he shouldn't say it,but if you climb up & spit in it it would do just as much good. chemicals co. are good at brainwashing everyone. nature usually takes care of it's own.

 

[jt]

chuckie and jerry, this is very interesting and i am going to ask my vet about it too.. i have a neighbor like you describe... never worms.. and his cattle are in great shape. dont know what role it plays with him, but his stocking rate is low too. i would think that has to help.

thanks

jt

 

[milesvb]

I only started annually worming the entire herd a couple years ago. Before that we wormed individual cows that lost condition when the rest were doing fine. If I remember right, the cydectin came out to about $3 per head so I figure it's not killing the bottom line. With that said, I really haven't noticed any improvement or changes in the herd. So in the future I may be more judicious in my worming. If a cow is maintaining good condition without it then where's the problem?

 

[jt]

I only started annually worming the entire herd a couple years ago. Before that we wormed individual cows that lost condition when the rest were doing fine. If I remember right, the cydectin came out to about $3 per head so I figure it's not killing the bottom line. With that said, I really haven't noticed any improvement or changes in the herd. So in the future I may be more judicious in my worming. If a cow is maintaining good condition without it then where's the problem?

the only thing that keeps coming back to me when talking about not worming is... what about liver flukes?

maybe they are not that big of a problem, i dont know, but then again i have always wormed twice a year. i wonder if a resistence is built up again them too??

i still intend on asking my vet about his opinion on all this.


jt

 

[milesvb]

I only started annually worming the entire herd a couple years ago. Before that we wormed individual cows that lost condition when the rest were doing fine. If I remember right, the cydectin came out to about $3 per head so I figure it's not killing the bottom line. With that said, I really haven't noticed any improvement or changes in the herd. So in the future I may be more judicious in my worming. If a cow is maintaining good condition without it then where's the problem?

the only thing that keeps coming back to me when talking about not worming is... what about liver flukes?

maybe they are not that big of a problem, i dont know, but then again i have always wormed twice a year. i wonder if a resistence is built up again them too??

i still intend on asking my vet about his opinion on all this.


jt

Be sure and let us know what he says.

 

[MikeC]

Not much problem with liver flukes except in Fla. and some other low lying states. It comes from a snail.

Big thing that would worry me about not de-worming would be if the cows were not de-wormed they would be shedding eggs year round to the calves who have no immunity. Once the pasture gets infested, then what?

 

[milesvb]

Not much problem with liver flukes except in Fla. and some other low lying states. It comes from a snail.

Big thing that would worry me about not de-worming would be if the cows were not de-wormed they would be shedding eggs year round to the calves who have no immunity. Once the pasture gets infested, then what?

I had read that flukes were mostly a problem in coastal/swampy areas. That explains it.

I remember reading about a study on worming calves. If I remember right, there was little to no difference between the groups. In fact I think the wormed calves weaned out just a shade lighter on average. Now if I can just dig up that study.