Double Muscled

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Red Bull Breeder

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If muscle has no effect on the eating quailty of beef Robert, why do i never see anyone trimming the red meat off and eating the fat?? Marbling has less than %10 effect on the tenderness of beef.
 

glacierridge

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Agreed RBB
Also, when you CROSS heavier muscled animals you get a lot of the best of both worlds. You still get enough marbling but it's healthier and actually, our more muscled animals maintain fine, and the heavier muscled feeders are actually more feed efficient than those that aren't.
 

ANAZAZI

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i read an american report about getting both high yield and acceptable marbling at the same time on the same animal. Winner cross in this endeavour was hereford X piedmontese.
Seems likely a red poll X belgian blue or angus X limousine or the likes of it could get close as well.
 

3waycross

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robert":107da4vs said:
Quality is a function of marbling, not muscle, well marbled beef consistently scores well in consumer trials for taste, the consumer cares not a whit about how heavy the carcass was or what yield grade it was because yield (muscle) is a function of profit for the packer, it has zero effect on the eating quality of beef. Muscle is antagonistic to fat deposition, muscle is also more expensive to maintain, marbling is the object for consistent good eating beef, yield is just a function of how much there is. Don't get me wrong, I'm not against the packer making money and I'm not in favor of yg5 choice cattle, but we produce a product that relies upon consumer demand and acceptance, that means choice or higher.

:tiphat: I sell it in a box as well as on the hoof and i can tell you for a fact that what Robert says here is exactly what my customers are looking for.....and that means the vast majority of restaurants in America. There's not too many steakhouses that advertize that they have the tenderest and least flavorful steaks in town!

FWIW i am not arguing that an inherent tenderness is not a good thing however with the amount of aging going on in most high end restaurants and high end boxed beef programs it is not as important as marbling. As a wholsesaler we have a marbling rating on every piece of middle meat and most other cuts too. We have no shear force rating on ANY piece of meat.
One other interesting little tidbit for ya'll is this. Virtually every breed assn is out there measuring for and touting the Sq in of the ribeyes on their top sires. The funny thing is that for middle meats(read ribeye and striploins) the larger ribeyes are consistantly DISCOUNTED. 12 and downs almost always sell for less than 12 and ups. The only thing that ever changes that is if there is a glut of smaller cattle coming out of the feedlots!

just my :2cents:
 

Jeanne - Simme Valley

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I'm confused - must be over my head.
You said "larger ribeyes are consistantly DISCOUNTED. 12 and downs almost always sell for less than 12 and ups." That sounds contradictory to me??? is the 12 - sq" ribeye??

Here's a good article:
Bigger Cattle; Smaller Steaks
Jan. 9, 2013 Burt Rutherford
While the industry signals to producers to produce bigger cattle, consumers are signaling they want smaller steaks. How can the industry resolve the discrepancy?

It’s a conundrum that’s been a long time coming, says Dale Woerner, Colorado State University meats scientist. Carcass weights are increasing at the same time consumers are looking for smaller portion sizes. It’s a situation that cattlemen and consumers have been adapting to, and dealing with, for 30 years or more. But as new technologies and better genetics have come to the fore in the recent past, the trend toward larger carcass weights and therefore, larger retail beef cuts, has hit a higher gear.

“We have a beef industry that is growing in the way of efficiency, but it’s shrinking in the way of numbers,” Woerner says. “And our industry is compensating for that by producing beef cattle that are larger in size in order to keep up with the demand for production. Consequently, we have larger animals that are producing larger subprimal cuts, including the rib.”

Just how big is “big?” Woerner says the recently released National Beef Quality Audit sheds some light.
One of the things the audit clearly pointed out is that while carcass weights and ribeye area are getting larger, the amount of variation from top to bottom is jaw-dropping wide. “We have carcass weights ranging from 400 lbs. to 1,200 lbs. daily in most cases in a packing facility.” That creates huge challenges for a retailer or restaurant trying to achieve some consistency in the portion size they offer consumers.

The average hot carcass weight in the audit was 818.5 lbs. “I can certainly recall in the early 2000s having to hunt to find cattle this heavy,” Woerner says. “Today, you have to hunt to find cattle that are less than 800 lbs. We’re certainly seeing a much greater amount of 800-, 900-, even 1,000-lb. carcasses on a routine basis.” So much so that most branded beef programs, including Certified Angus Beef®, have steadily increased their upper limit on carcass weights and now accept 1,000-lbs. Carcasses.

Another Look: A Retailer Speaks On Beef, Consumers & The Future
Bigger carcasses mean bigger ribeye areas. “The average ribeye area in 2011 was 13.7 sq. in.,” he says. “But the variation we’re finding is from a minimum of 4.4 sq. in., to a maximum of 28.2 sq. in. The 28.2-sq.-in. ribeye is literally the size of a lunch-sized plate.”

However, the majority of ribeyes now range from 11-16 sq. in., which is plenty big. “What does a 13.5-sq.-in. ribeye translate to in weight? It’s about 15-17 oz. The reality is that most of our consumers would not prefer ribeyes that large.”

Thus, the conundrum. “We don’t feel we’re going to make cattle smaller,” Woerner says. “So we have conceded as an industry to find alternative ways to cut these larger-sized products, and portion them down into more acceptable size products.”

Take the ribeye, for instance. “We can pull apart the ribeye roll and individually merchandise different muscle cuts,” he says. That’s done by separating out the main muscle and cutting it in half, producing steaks that resemble a tenderloin. “Then, cut those to 1½-in. thick and you achieve a positive eating experience for an 8- to 10-oz. steak."
The smaller muscle outside of the main ribeye is very tender and can be merchandised separately, adding value to the cut and providing an additional consumer choice at the meat case.

Beyond that, Woerner says cutting the ribeye into several individual cuts drastically reduces the kernels of excess fat that are present. “In this cutting strategy, we can remove those and improve the overall nutritional profile of the products. In our marketplace, with our consumers, improving the nutritional profile of beef is something we believe is going to contribute to the sustainability of our industry.”
http://beefmagazine.com/retail/bigger-c ... c4enews=42
 

3waycross

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Jeanne - Simme Valley said:
I'm confused - must be over my head.
You said "larger ribeyes are consistantly DISCOUNTED. 12 and downs almost always sell for less than 12 and ups." That sounds contradictory to me??? is the 12 - sq" ribeye??


12lbs not 12 sq in. The larger the ribeye the more it wants to hang over the plate. You cannot cut a 12 oz ,THICK ,ribeye off a 15 lb piece of meat. Nobody wants to try to cooka 1/2 in steak to med rare. It's almost impossible
 

mwj

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3waycross":12qusiyg said:
Jeanne - Simme Valley":12qusiyg said:
I'm confused - must be over my head.
You said "larger ribeyes are consistantly DISCOUNTED. 12 and downs almost always sell for less than 12 and ups." That sounds contradictory to me??? is the 12 - sq" ribeye??


12lbs not 12 sq in. The larger the ribeye the more it wants to hang over the plate. You cannot cut a 12 oz ,THICK ,ribeye off a 15 lb piece of meat. Nobody wants to try to cooka 1/2 in steak to med rare. It's almost impossible




You are still saying that 12lbs. and up (bigger) is bringing the most money! You need to reword your statement if that is not what you intend it to say.
 

slick4591

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They sell those packaged roasts two different ways. 12 lbs and down or 12 lbs and up. I think he is saying the 12 and downs are selling more per pound. Been awhile since I've bought ribeyes that way, but I'd often find the downs cost more per lb.
 

robert

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Red Bull Breeder":sxsscskj said:
If muscle has no effect on the eating quailty of beef Robert, why do i never see anyone trimming the red meat off and eating the fat?? Marbling has less than %10 effect on the tenderness of beef.

Quality is determined by the degree of marbling, it is the accepted measure of consumer satisfaction, study after study has demonstrated that the more marbling there is the greater the customer satisfaction. Does the fineness or coarseness of the grain of the muscle or the age of the animal come into play? Absolutely, but these are secondary measures of quality. Backfat is a function of yield, not quality, when I said fat I should specifically say marbling. Size of eye muscle is important from a portion size perspective and as Vic noted too large a ribeye means having to cut too thin to cook correctly.
 

slick4591

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Red Bull Breeder":3in6bsnu said:
You are right Robert marbling is the accepted way to determine quailty. The amount of saleable product on a carcass determines yeild.

I agree on the word "accepted". Thing is these double muscled animals are bringing taste and quality to the table without the marbling.
 

glacierridge

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slick4591":l29nmquh said:
Red Bull Breeder":l29nmquh said:
You are right Robert marbling is the accepted way to determine quailty. The amount of saleable product on a carcass determines yeild.

I agree on the word "accepted". Thing is these double muscled animals are bringing taste and quality to the table without the marbling.

Yep. Just hasn't been marketed like CAB has been yet.
 

CKC1586

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glacierridge":1qgm90fa said:
slick4591":1qgm90fa said:
Red Bull Breeder":1qgm90fa said:
You are right Robert marbling is the accepted way to determine quailty. The amount of saleable product on a carcass determines yeild.

I agree on the word "accepted". Thing is these double muscled animals are bringing taste and quality to the table without the marbling.

Yep. Just hasn't been marketed like CAB has been yet.
Yeppers indeed. Neither association has the dollars to do that kind of promotion....but we are gaining, taste by taste....
 

3waycross

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mwj":2pzf7q4a said:
3waycross":2pzf7q4a said:
Jeanne - Simme Valley":2pzf7q4a said:
I'm confused - must be over my head.
You said "larger ribeyes are consistantly DISCOUNTED. 12 and downs almost always sell for less than 12 and ups." That sounds contradictory to me??? is the 12 - sq" ribeye??


12lbs not 12 sq in. The larger the ribeye the more it wants to hang over the plate. You cannot cut a 12 oz ,THICK ,ribeye off a 15 lb piece of meat. Nobody wants to try to cooka 1/2 in steak to med rare. It's almost impossible




You are still saying that 12lbs. and up (bigger) is bringing the most money! You need to reword your statement if that is not what you intend it to say.


I don't believe i am. But for the record here goes: I just updated my prices for the week and they are as follows for the boxed beef ribeyes.
11-14 avg Select ribeyes are running $.09 more than 14-17 avg Select
The differential on choice is about even this week. My guess is that they are killing many more smaller calves because of the cost of feed.
The differential on Striploins is close to $.40 higher on the smaller strips on some programs and a nickle on others.

Frankly this market is as screwed up as a soup sandwich right now.
 

robert

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ever had a good steak in Europe? Neither have I, what's the main difference between grading in Europe and the US? In the EU they don't consider marbling, in the US they do. What is the dominant breed in the US? Angus. What is / are the dominant breeds in Europe? Charolais, Simmental, Limousin, Belgian Blue. Which of those aforementioned breeds marble? IF beef was hung 7 - 10 days then I believe marbling would become less of a factor however that change is highly unlikely to be made. Is there a place for exotic breeds in the US system? Of course, the balance of muscle with marbling is a trade off that has to be made, so long as we keep in mind the satisfaction of the consumer is foremost. YG1 with no marbling is a pointless exercise.
 

3waycross

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robert":1vcitnkz said:
ever had a good steak in Europe? Neither have I, what's the main difference between grading in Europe and the US? In the EU they don't consider marbling, in the US they do. What is the dominant breed in the US? Angus. What is / are the dominant breeds in Europe? Charolais, Simmental, Limousin, Belgian Blue. Which of those aforementioned breeds marble? IF beef was hung 7 - 10 days then I believe marbling would become less of a factor however that change is highly unlikely to be made. Is there a place for exotic breeds in the US system? Of course, the balance of muscle with marbling is a trade off that has to be made, so long as we keep in mind the satisfaction of the consumer is foremost. YG1 with no marbling is a pointless exercise.

Robert virtually EVERY steak you eat in a restaurant in the US has at least 14 days and in some cases as much as 60 days of age on it. No it is not DRY age but that doesn't mean squat when you are talking tenderness. A true dry age does intensify the "BEEF" flavor but it is no different that wet age when it comes to marbling!

FWIW i don't make this stuff up. It is my day job and i have been doing it for 30 years. I may not know nearly as much about feeding cattle as a lot of you but I know a whole lot about feeding people!
 

slick4591

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As it stands at the moment the only one that has to eat doubled muscled beef is the consumer that seeks it out. It's not in every supermarket to where one has no other choice except to buy it if they want beef. I've never been to Europe to know what they are serving and I really don't care. What I do know is that the Piedmontese beef that I've eaten has been as tender and more flavorful than the commercial stuff I can get a hold of. And, as a heart patient, I get to eat more of it.
 

glacierridge

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slick4591":3lu0w56v said:
As it stands at the moment the only one that has to eat doubled muscled beef is the consumer that seeks it out. It's not in every supermarket to where one has no other choice except to buy it if they want beef. I've never been to Europe to know what they are serving and I really don't care. What I do know is that the Piedmontese beef that I've eaten has been as tender and more flavorful than the commercial stuff I can get a hold of. And, as a heart patient, I get to eat more of it.

Exactly why the lean breeds have value. They can be very flavorful and tender while being leaner and part of a heart healthy diet.
 

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