DOC EPD
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Red Bull Breeder
Well-known member
if it a 40 he is dead.
I am old and fat a 40 seems just about right! :lol:
Red Bull Breeder
Well-known member
With a 40 doc he would be to lazy to breed cows.
Son of Butch
Well-known member
NO!dt34715":2lopnlcb said:
It is not a measure by degree, it is a measure of % that are high strung.
A sire with doc 40 will have a much lower % high strung vs doc 10 sire.
But the offspring of a 10 doc sire, that are not high strung, may be as easy going as any from a 40 doc.
There probably is a correlation of degree to % but it has not been documented or measured.
DOC HARRIS
Well-known member
Here is another example of how breeders (and just people in general) are prone to "jump to conclusions" quickly in looking for a fast and easy solution to make their selection decisions easier and simpler in selecting breeding stock. The EPD figures that one can apply to seed stock are NOT germane or pertinent to the grades that one gets in school tests or on Report Cards. It is easier to think that a DOC EPD of 40 (or any other designated EPD figure) can be considered as 40% of 100% perfection, than to take the effort to think and realize that it is a predictor of the difference in transmitting ability of calmness or quiet attitude compared to that of other sires! The phrase - - -COMPARED TO THAT OF OTHER SIRES is the operative factor in understanding EPD's, and I would surmise that most breeders don't bear that fact in their thinking when focusing on EPD's! It is NOT Report Card grading, Folks!
Take a little time and understand what EPD's REALLY are, and use that information to BALANCE your selection processes for a comfortable unit of measurement. In so doing, you should not be disappointed when a particular individual animal does not meet your optimistic expectations of perfection! The Sires' concerned should also be analyzed with their "Accuracy" figures taken into consideration.
Selection of beef cattle for either Maternal or Terminal usage is not a game to be taken lightly! It is very serious work, and should be respected and considered as such! It not only represents the future quality of your progeny in the future, but one mistake overlooked in seed stock selection can consume years and years of breeding effort to correct! That is why I am constantly harping on BALANCE OF MULTIPLE TRAIT SELECTION CHOICES!
DOC HARRIS
Take a little time and understand what EPD's REALLY are, and use that information to BALANCE your selection processes for a comfortable unit of measurement. In so doing, you should not be disappointed when a particular individual animal does not meet your optimistic expectations of perfection! The Sires' concerned should also be analyzed with their "Accuracy" figures taken into consideration.
Selection of beef cattle for either Maternal or Terminal usage is not a game to be taken lightly! It is very serious work, and should be respected and considered as such! It not only represents the future quality of your progeny in the future, but one mistake overlooked in seed stock selection can consume years and years of breeding effort to correct! That is why I am constantly harping on BALANCE OF MULTIPLE TRAIT SELECTION CHOICES!
DOC HARRIS
Katpau
Well-known member
As Doc Harris mentions, be sure to consider the accuracy noted just below the number. If a bull had a +40 docility rating with a .98 accuracy it means that EPD is based on a lot of information from many different people. It is still not a guarantee that he will throw a docile offspring for you, but he did for many others. If the accuracy is only .05 it means it was based on a average of the EPD's of its parents. It's parents may not have been reported accurately and even if they were, he may not take after them. Think of it this way. If one parent is -10 for DOC and the other is +40 and no other information is reported, the offspring would be assigned a DOC +25, but he might just as likely have inherited the disposition that resulted in one parent being rated at -10.
I have noticed that ever since the docility EPD was released the DOC score of animals seems to be increasing rapidly. This is partly because people select for it, but also because many breeders may be somewhat generous in how they evaluate animals they hope to sell. I am always a bit suspicious of EPD's that are based on mostly the owners evaluations. I like to see an accuracy of 90%, but that is not possible with a young animal.
I have noticed that ever since the docility EPD was released the DOC score of animals seems to be increasing rapidly. This is partly because people select for it, but also because many breeders may be somewhat generous in how they evaluate animals they hope to sell. I am always a bit suspicious of EPD's that are based on mostly the owners evaluations. I like to see an accuracy of 90%, but that is not possible with a young animal.
Supa Dexta
Well-known member
My understanding is that its the likely hood of how many offspring will have the best temperament, out of 100.
A bull with a 40, should have 40% of his calves born with a great disposition. There is a disposition scoring system as well to go along with that, from 1-6 = with 1 being docile, and 6 being very aggressive.
So in the above example, that bull should have 40 out of 100 calves score a 1. The others will be scattered from 2 thru 6. There's one in every crowd.
A bull with a 40, should have 40% of his calves born with a great disposition. There is a disposition scoring system as well to go along with that, from 1-6 = with 1 being docile, and 6 being very aggressive.
So in the above example, that bull should have 40 out of 100 calves score a 1. The others will be scattered from 2 thru 6. There's one in every crowd.
WalnutCrest
Well-known member
In that approach, a 1 is not what you want. They still need to respect you. I have a coming-yearling bull here at home who is such a laid-back dude he and I have had to work on him remembering that I can eat him if I ever chose to. I'm working on thinking through a new temperament scoring system here to take into consideration the downside of being aggressive and the downside of being so pliable that they don't respect you.
As an aside ... anyone have a view about the accuracy of the Docility score reported by Igenity in their Beef Profile?
As an aside ... anyone have a view about the accuracy of the Docility score reported by Igenity in their Beef Profile?
In my opinion, trying to lock in on temperament as one trait is going to miss the mark. There are a lot of factors at play, just because something is gentle doesn't mean it will not crash through a gate if it feels like it's getting hemmed in. Or trying to rub you out over a calf. Plenty of Brahman influenced stuff and some of the earlier Limos were able to be gentled, eat out of a bucket etc. But they have a higher flight response, let a bag blow around and they are in the next field. I've seen cows that you had to give a shot in the pen because they wouldn't go through a chute get testy over a calf. I've seen cows that you could scratch behind the ears light out for the next county because you bring in a trailer and a couple of extra people. There are many facets to it. Ability to be tamed, not excitable, not afraid of getting hemmed in, won't kill you over a calf, not afraid of strangers, close personal space threshold, all play in. Some are too dumb to be scared, some are tame but they just like going everywhere at a gallop with their tail in the air, (energetic). Jersey bulls are usually pretty friendly when they aren't busy goring you to death. If you invite a bunch of strangers over and chase them around and whoop and holler and frail around in the pen, gentle cattle can become a little more wild, but some of them can tolerate it better than others. What I hate are the ones that get hemmed in and then decide they want to play matador with you, the rest of them you can outsmart one way or another.
Nesikep
Well-known member
WalnutCrest.
I will take a the most docile animal ANY DAY of the week.. If I feel like they should fear me, a daily zap with a hotshot for a week will GUARANTEE a worse score.. it's EASY to get a worse score.
What I don't like are animals that are unafraid and stupid or spooky. I know the ones I just can't trust to not jump and freak out at a bag flapping somewhere, or the ones that go from being nice all year to wicked witches at calving time.. THOSE are my definition of bad temperaments.. I have cows that aren't tame, they like their distance, but they behave predictably.
You wouldn't like Mega.. I can just walk up to her, put the milk bucket under her, and milk.
Andyva beat me on this.. yes there are many aspects of docility, and trying to lump it all together, though well intentioned may not work out that well.
My current Limo bull has been really good, I have had to shoo him off once or twice when he wanted more attention than I was prepared to give him, but he's always behaved well. My yearling is shaping up to be similar, he doesn't get worked up about anything and takes everything in stride.
Our Gelbvieh bull wasn't a *tame* bull, he liked to be about 5 feet away, but wasn't freaky either.. even after the 5 hour ride to the sale barn he was calm, and just ambled out of the trailer and into his pen.
Now our Shorthorn bull (and his son) were a whole other story, They were friendly enough when they were here, but as soon as they had to be worked they turned into manhunters.. Lady who runs the sale barn remembers that 2400 lb monster very well, and she sees a few animals!.. The son went to the butcher, and he wasn't much better.. I had him in a 3 horse angle haul trailer, and to unlatch his gate I had to get in there... I straddled the windows with my legs, and unhooked his gate, and then he wanted to turn ME into hamburger, I had my back up against the roof, and my calculations were correct, he couldn't reach me up there, but he sure tried! Good riddance to both of those arseholes!
I will take a the most docile animal ANY DAY of the week.. If I feel like they should fear me, a daily zap with a hotshot for a week will GUARANTEE a worse score.. it's EASY to get a worse score.
What I don't like are animals that are unafraid and stupid or spooky. I know the ones I just can't trust to not jump and freak out at a bag flapping somewhere, or the ones that go from being nice all year to wicked witches at calving time.. THOSE are my definition of bad temperaments.. I have cows that aren't tame, they like their distance, but they behave predictably.
You wouldn't like Mega.. I can just walk up to her, put the milk bucket under her, and milk.
Andyva beat me on this.. yes there are many aspects of docility, and trying to lump it all together, though well intentioned may not work out that well.
My current Limo bull has been really good, I have had to shoo him off once or twice when he wanted more attention than I was prepared to give him, but he's always behaved well. My yearling is shaping up to be similar, he doesn't get worked up about anything and takes everything in stride.
Our Gelbvieh bull wasn't a *tame* bull, he liked to be about 5 feet away, but wasn't freaky either.. even after the 5 hour ride to the sale barn he was calm, and just ambled out of the trailer and into his pen.
Now our Shorthorn bull (and his son) were a whole other story, They were friendly enough when they were here, but as soon as they had to be worked they turned into manhunters.. Lady who runs the sale barn remembers that 2400 lb monster very well, and she sees a few animals!.. The son went to the butcher, and he wasn't much better.. I had him in a 3 horse angle haul trailer, and to unlatch his gate I had to get in there... I straddled the windows with my legs, and unhooked his gate, and then he wanted to turn ME into hamburger, I had my back up against the roof, and my calculations were correct, he couldn't reach me up there, but he sure tried! Good riddance to both of those arseholes!
Nesikep
Well-known member
Docility shouldn't be scored while you're trying to get the animal to do what it WANTS to do.. it should be scored when you're trying to get it to do something it DOESN'T want to do!
It would be similar to replacing BW, WW, and YW with just W. If they want to do something they need to have docility at calving, bull docility, docility when hemmed up, docility when the wind blows a tarp off the truck bed, and things similar to that.
Red Bull Breeder
Well-known member
Docility is pretty easy. When you work cows or calves just score them out of the chute. Walks out calmly real good. Tears out and bounces of the side of the pens, real bad. The middle ground between these two examples is where you want to be. No HOT SHOTs allowed when conducting this test.
Pretty much means nothing then. Just another marketing gimmick. Who records this data? There is no substitute for going to the farm and looking at the cattle you want to buy. Unless they are so spooky that you would never be able to find them if a stranger showed up. Then the cattle's owner can just sell based on EPDs in that case.
We have one bull who I would have given a super high DOC score to for the first 24 months we had him but here lately he's been unpredictable and a little scary. I don't let him catch me out where he's got the advantage.
Nesikep
Well-known member
I was saying it's easy to make an animal spooky with a hot shot if you got one that's too calm for your liking.. I wasn't referring to using it while scoring
