Do We Need 1000 LB Weaning Weights?

[greenwillowherefords]

Just received my Remitall Herefords catalog the other day. They featured several bulls with 900+ lb weaning weights, and one that had a 205 weight of 1035. I respect the program immensely, but I ask you, with a 1200 lb. steer fitting the box, how is something that weans that heavy going to finish at the right weight to fit the packer's box? I think at some point, we have the weaning weights heavy enough, and should focus on other things like carcass, disposition, longevity, and trouble-free genetics. What do the rest of you think? The bull was sired by Online 122L.

 

[ollie]

Yes.

 

[txshowmom]

How old were they when they were weaned? There is no way they were 205 days.

 

[cattle_gal]

That weight in a british breed! That's hefty.

The only thing that is still emphisized is weight gain to the commercial breeder. Around here more. This goes to the thinking that bull purchasers don't know anything about carcass. I still know many ranchers who could care less about what the cow/bull/calf has inside just as long as it is lbs. They say pounds are pounds. As soon as the calves leave the ranch who cares.

But everything about a bull counts from birth to harvest in them and the offspring.

BTW what is the carcass on those bulls you mentioned. Not EPD's but ultrasounds and ect.

 

[WORANCH]

What were the Birth Weights?????

 

[PATB]

What is the frame score or height on these bulls? How much creep have they been fed? I would love to raise 1000 plus pound feeder calves in 205 days and still have a animal that meets the CAB specs.

 

[txag]

here's the link to the on-line catalog

http://www.airenet.com/remitall/sales.html

choose 2004 Hereford Production Sale

Lot 4 is the bull with over 1000-lb 205 day weight.
BW was 107 lbs

 

[BLACKPOWER]

How old were they when they were weaned? There is no way they were 205 days.

205 is an adjusted weight, since not all calves can be born on the same day and not always weaned on the same day this is a way to compare ww fairly. calves older than 205 days when they are weaned have their ww adjusted down, calves younger than 205 days have their ww adjusted up. Take a look at Scotchcap Angus, they routinely wean calves over 900 lbs. 205 weight, an some that big off of First calf heifers. Their is a lot of performance bred into these cattle and A LOT of corn. If you ask me this is way to much performance for a herd trying to become more efficient. For example at the time of breeding you want your heifer calves to be at 65% of the mature weight your aiming for. If you wean a heifer calf at 800 lbs the first of November and she gains 1.5 lbs(pretty conservative) for 6 months (breed her the first of May) thats an additional 270lbs bringing her weight up to 1070 lbs. If this is 65% of her mature weight essentially she will be a 1700 lb cow. This is to big for any environment especially in a drought challenged area. The Angus industry for years and years selected for performance to compete with the exotic craze that hit the country. They caught up and with costs going up your seeing a push back to more moderate framed easy fleshing cattle. All the performace in the world won't help you unless you keep the feedbunk full. In closing a man has to ask himself , Is the added pounds on my calves worth the added costs of inputs needed to maximize weaning weight? For any farmers reading this it is essentially the same relationship between deciding how much Nitrogen to put on and yields, you can keep adding inputs but eventually yield increases will plateau to a point where all your gaining is bragging at the coffee shop.

 

[txag]

How old were they when they were weaned? There is no way they were 205 days.

205 is an adjusted weight, since not all calves can be born on the same day and not always weaned on the same day this is a way to compare ww fairly. calves older than 205 days when they are weaned have their ww adjusted down, calves younger than 205 days have their ww adjusted up. Take a look at Scotchcap Angus, they routinely wean calves over 900 lbs. 205 weight, an some that big off of First calf heifers. Their is a lot of performance bred into these cattle and A LOT of corn. If you ask me this is way to much performance for a herd trying to become more efficient. For example at the time of breeding you want your heifer calves to be at 65% of the mature weight your aiming for. If you wean a heifer calf at 800 lbs the first of November and she gains 1.5 lbs(pretty conservative) for 6 months (breed her the first of May) thats an additional 270lbs bringing her weight up to 1070 lbs. If this is 65% of her mature weight essentially she will be a 1700 lb cow. This is to big for any environment especially in a drought challenged area. The Angus industry for years and years selected for performance to compete with the exotic craze that hit the country. They caught up and with costs going up your seeing a push back to more moderate framed easy fleshing cattle. All the performace in the world won't help you unless you keep the feedbunk full. In closing a man has to ask himself , Is the added pounds on my calves worth the added costs of inputs needed to maximize weaning weight? For any farmers reading this it is essentially the same relationship between deciding how much Nitrogen to put on and yields, you can keep adding inputs but eventually yield increases will plateau to a point where all your gaining is bragging at the coffee shop.

first off, BP, nice post. no profanity or name-calling.
my question to you is in your reference to the adj 205 day weights. i'm familiar w adjusted weights & know how they work, but i'm wondering are you implying that they weaned early & had them adjusted up?

i'm not discounting the feed-factor (i have no idea if Remitall creeps or not), but even if they are weaning at 5 mos, that'd still have to be a pretty big 5-month weight to adjust up to over 1000-lb 205, right?

 

[BLACKPOWER]

How old were they when they were weaned? There is no way they were 205 days.

205 is an adjusted weight, since not all calves can be born on the same day and not always weaned on the same day this is a way to compare ww fairly. calves older than 205 days when they are weaned have their ww adjusted down, calves younger than 205 days have their ww adjusted up. Take a look at Scotchcap Angus, they routinely wean calves over 900 lbs. 205 weight, an some that big off of First calf heifers. Their is a lot of performance bred into these cattle and A LOT of corn. If you ask me this is way to much performance for a herd trying to become more efficient. For example at the time of breeding you want your heifer calves to be at 65% of the mature weight your aiming for. If you wean a heifer calf at 800 lbs the first of November and she gains 1.5 lbs(pretty conservative) for 6 months (breed her the first of May) thats an additional 270lbs bringing her weight up to 1070 lbs. If this is 65% of her mature weight essentially she will be a 1700 lb cow. This is to big for any environment especially in a drought challenged area. The Angus industry for years and years selected for performance to compete with the exotic craze that hit the country. They caught up and with costs going up your seeing a push back to more moderate framed easy fleshing cattle. All the performace in the world won't help you unless you keep the feedbunk full. In closing a man has to ask himself , Is the added pounds on my calves worth the added costs of inputs needed to maximize weaning weight? For any farmers reading this it is essentially the same relationship between deciding how much Nitrogen to put on and yields, you can keep adding inputs but eventually yield increases will plateau to a point where all your gaining is bragging at the coffee shop.

first off, BP, nice post.
my question to you is in your reference to the adj 205 day weights. i'm familiar w adjusted weights & know how they work, but i'm wondering are you implying that they weaned early & had them adjusted up?

i'm not discounting the feed-factor (i have no idea if Remitall creeps or not), but even if they are weaning at 5 mos, that'd still have to be a pretty big 5-month weight to adjust up to over 1000-lb 205, right?

Yes, that's a big calf adjusted or not.

 

[greenwillowherefords]

How old were they when they were weaned? There is no way they were 205 days.

That is what the catalog states, doesn't mention adjusted either. Birth date Feb 10, 04. I assume it took a while to put together the catalog, so it couldn't have been too much over. I'd like to see a calf that would wean at 205 that heavy even on full feed. He'd still have to be impressive to accomplish that kind of weight gain. Remitall is a highly respected program! I wouldn't want to question their integrity.

 

[dun]

The main point that BP makes, and it is very valid, is the need for some awfully big cows with high milk (read feed requirements) to be able to accomplish the job. For the majority of cattle people, who could afford the groceries to have cows capable of weaning a half ton calf. The growth genes have to be there, but the groceries do too. Although a 1800 lb cow won't eat twice as much as a 900 lber,you're still looking at a lot of feed for her to feed a calf, even if it's creeped, and still be in condition to cycle and settle.

dun

 

[BLACKPOWER]

How old were they when they were weaned? There is no way they were 205 days.

That is what the catalog states, doesn't mention adjusted either. Birth date Feb 10, 04. I assume it took a while to put together the catalog, so it couldn't have been too much over. I'd like to see a calf that would wean at 205 that heavy even on full feed. He'd still have to be impressive to accomplish that kind of weight gain. Remitall is a highly respected program! I wouldn't want to question their integrity.

Here is the formula for 205 day weights, virtually all bulls you will see in a sale catalog have been adjusted to a 205 day weight, it is the only way to compare birthweights fairly.

Weaning Weight Adjusted to 205 Days
Pre-Weaning Gain= (Weaning Weight - Birth Weight) ÷ Age in Days 205 Day Adjusted Weight = Pre-Weaning Gain x 205 + Birth Weight + Age of Dam Additive
(see below)

Age of Dam Additive
Age of Dam Male Calves Female Calves

2 year old plus 60 pounds plus 54 pounds

3 year old plus 40 pounds plus 36 pounds

4 year old plus 20 pounds plus 18 pounds

5 to 10 year old none none

11 years or older plus 20 pounds plus 18 pounds

 

[txag]

The main point that BP makes, and it is very valid, is the need for some awfully big cows with high milk (read feed requirements) to be able to accomplish the job. For the majority of cattle people, who could afford the groceries to have cows capable of weaning a half ton calf. The growth genes have to be there, but the groceries do too. Although a 1800 lb cow won't eat twice as much as a 900 lber,you're still looking at a lot of feed for her to feed a calf, even if it's creeped, and still be in condition to cycle and settle.

dun

i understood his point and i agree that those cows are too big for our area as well (i was just trying to point out that even adjusted, over 1000-lbs is a big 205-day weight). the interesting thing is, i've seen large groups of Remitall cattle brought down & within a year or two (using bulls and females brought down) the size has dropped (not of the original cattle but their offspring). sure, the growth genetics are still there but the environment doesn't support them showing to their full potential.

 

[BLACKPOWER]

Just received my Remitall Herefords catalog the other day. They featured several bulls with 900+ lb weaning weights, and one that had a 205 weight of 1035. I respect the program immensely, but I ask you, with a 1200 lb. steer fitting the box, how is something that weans that heavy going to finish at the right weight to fit the packer's box? I think at some point, we have the weaning weights heavy enough, and should focus on other things like carcass, disposition, longevity, and trouble-free genetics. What do the rest of you think? The bull was sired by Online 122L.

Why would they even send a catalog to US customers when you couldn't get the bull across the border?

 

[txag]

Just received my Remitall Herefords catalog the other day. They featured several bulls with 900+ lb weaning weights, and one that had a 205 weight of 1035. I respect the program immensely, but I ask you, with a 1200 lb. steer fitting the box, how is something that weans that heavy going to finish at the right weight to fit the packer's box? I think at some point, we have the weaning weights heavy enough, and should focus on other things like carcass, disposition, longevity, and trouble-free genetics. What do the rest of you think? The bull was sired by Online 122L.

Why would they even send a catalog to US customers when you couldn't get the bull across the border?

US buyers have been a major purchasing power at Remitall sales for many years. personally, i'd be a little gun-shy of purchasing anything. i know several people who purchased bulls last year & have yet to see them. i'm not sure what kind of arrangement they have going or if they even still own them. i've been meaning to ask a friend of mine who's in that boat, but just haven't taken the time to sit down & type the e-mail.

i suppose you could use the catalog to determine Remitall bull a.i. possibilities.

 

[greenwillowherefords]

They said they would keep the animal for $2 a day until the border opens. Embryos and semen are clear to cross the border.

 

[BLACKPOWER]

Just received my Remitall Herefords catalog the other day. They featured several bulls with 900+ lb weaning weights, and one that had a 205 weight of 1035. I respect the program immensely, but I ask you, with a 1200 lb. steer fitting the box, how is something that weans that heavy going to finish at the right weight to fit the packer's box? I think at some point, we have the weaning weights heavy enough, and should focus on other things like carcass, disposition, longevity, and trouble-free genetics. What do the rest of you think? The bull was sired by Online 122L.

Why would they even send a catalog to US customers when you couldn't get the bull across the border?

US buyers have been a major purchasing power at Remitall sales for many years. personally, i'd be a little gun-shy of purchasing anything. i know several people who purchased bulls last year & have yet to see them. i'm not sure what kind of arrangement they have going or if they even still own them. i've been meaning to ask a friend of mine who's in that boat, but just haven't taken the time to sit down & type the e-mail.

i suppose you could use the catalog to determine Remitall bull a.i. possibilities.

I'm familiar with Remital's bulls A LOT of them head this way, one of thee premier Hereford breeders in the world, prices are ridicilous. If I'm not mistaken the familys last name was or is Latimer which is Remital spelled backwards.

 

[txag]

If I'm not mistaken the familys last name was or is Latimer which is Remital spelled backwards.

you're right.

 

[Texan]

......you can keep adding inputs but eventually yield increases will plateau to a point where all your gaining is bragging at the coffee shop.

Great point, BP! That bragging seems to be more important than profit to some people.