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Do any other commercial people use the Marc studies?

cypressfarms

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I'm in the market for another bull, I wanted a bull more growthier than the one's I have. Does anyone use the MARC across the breed comparisons to make a decision on what breed bull to buy? I was thinking of a charolais first, but it fell through. Found some nice hereford bull calves and some nice Simmi's. When you study the Marc data, you see that a simmi bull has a 27 pound advantage over a hereford if each bulls WW was 0. Charolais have a 41 pound advantage in the same aspect.

I realize that the resulting cross from a Hereford bull on my Brangus cows (baldies) would probably bring a better price per pound than a charolais cross calf (probably a gray calf), but I'm not entirely sure that the added calf weight would make up for the difference. A simmi bull would probably be the better choice as crossing him with my Brangus would yield predominantly black calves - maybe a baldy or two.

Surprisingly a beefmaster bull has the highest WW adjustment factor. I've had luck with my angus plus bull breeding beefmasters, maybe I could use a beefmaster to breed the brangus'.

Here's the data from Marc if anyone is interested:

http://www.ars.usda.gov/sp2UserFiles/Pl ... 09News.pdf
 

whitecow

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If you read the information from MARC about how to use the across breed EPD Tables, you will see that they are designed to compare one breed to another. They should be used to compare the EPDs of an individual bull to the EPDs of another bull of a different breed. Each breed's "average" EPD for a given trait are very different and the "average" phenotype (e.g., actual weaning weight) for each breed is also very different. The Across Breed EPD info from MARC should be used only to compare individual animals.
 

cypressfarms

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whitecow":3suoa9yk said:
If you read the information from MARC about how to use the across breed EPD Tables, you will see that they are designed to compare one breed to another. They should be used to compare the EPDs of an individual bull to the EPDs of another bull of a different breed. Each breed's "average" EPD for a given trait are very different and the "average" phenotype (e.g., actual weaning weight) for each breed is also very different. The Across Breed EPD info from MARC should be used only to compare individual animals.


Exactly, but if your considering several breeds of bull to purchase, you can't ignore the fact that all breeds don't produce the same amount of pounds.
 

mnmtranching

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Cypress, I believe crossed with Char you would get white and off white calves. My Char/BA are white or very light in color.
 

cypressfarms

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mnmtranching":2ugw1oj4 said:
Cypress, I believe crossed with Char you would get white and off white calves. My Char/BA are white or very light in color.

Yep, Charolais are diluters with color, so whatever color you breed them to, they'll normally lighten the color.
 

bigag03

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Cypress,

You cannot use the across breed EPD table to make broad statements as you are doing.

If you used A Hereford bull whose WW EPD were 0 and A Charolais bull whose WW EPD were 0 on similar cows of a third breed type (you have to eliminate heterosis inconsistencies, i.e. if you used these bulls on Hereford cows the comparison means nothing because the Hereford sired calves would have no heterosis while the calves sired by the Charolais bull would exhibit 100% hybrid vigor), then you would expect the Charolais sired calves to average 41 lbs heavier at weaning.

This does NOT mean that Charolais sired calves outweigh Hereford sired calves at weaning by 41 lbs.

As to the color, provided your cows are homozygous black, all calves should be light smokey. There will be some variation from off-white to almost black, but the whole should be smokey.
 

cypressfarms

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bigag03":2ys0d1pf said:
Cypress,

You cannot use the across breed EPD table to make broad statements as you are doing.

If you used A Hereford bull whose WW EPD were 0 and A Charolais bull whose WW EPD were 0 on similar cows of a third breed type (you have to eliminate heterosis inconsistencies, i.e. if you used these bulls on Hereford cows the comparison means nothing because the Hereford sired calves would have no heterosis while the calves sired by the Charolais bull would exhibit 100% hybrid vigor), then you would expect the Charolais sired calves to average 41 lbs heavier at weaning.

This does NOT mean that Charolais sired calves outweigh Hereford sired calves at weaning by 41 lbs.

Balogna!

Come on bigag03, your talking basic hybrid vigor. I think we all know that breeding a bull to the same breed will not result in any vigor gains. Breeding two different breeds (but same type) will have gain, breeding a british to a continental will have more.This is all elementary hybrid vigor 101. If you don't know this, then you shouldn't even be buying a bull, becuase your not going to get the most for your money - unless you just get blind lucky. You need to check up on your 100% vigor statement, my friend. But yes, I can make broad statements. The MARC data is accurate and has been compiled for many years. Are you implying that their studies are not correct?
 

Frankie

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cypressfarms":xqkq2hqz said:
bigag03":xqkq2hqz said:
Cypress,

You cannot use the across breed EPD table to make broad statements as you are doing.

If you used A Hereford bull whose WW EPD were 0 and A Charolais bull whose WW EPD were 0 on similar cows of a third breed type (you have to eliminate heterosis inconsistencies, i.e. if you used these bulls on Hereford cows the comparison means nothing because the Hereford sired calves would have no heterosis while the calves sired by the Charolais bull would exhibit 100% hybrid vigor), then you would expect the Charolais sired calves to average 41 lbs heavier at weaning.

This does NOT mean that Charolais sired calves outweigh Hereford sired calves at weaning by 41 lbs.

Balogna!

Come on bigag03, your talking basic hybrid vigor. I think we all know that breeding a bull to the same breed will not result in any vigor gains. Breeding two different breeds (but same type) will have gain, breeding a british to a continental will have more.This is all elementary hybrid vigor 101. If you don't know this, then you shouldn't even be buying a bull, becuase your not going to get the most for your money - unless you just get blind lucky. You need to check up on your 100% vigor statement, my friend. But yes, I can make broad statements. The MARC data is accurate and has been compiled for many years. Are you implying that their studies are not correct?

Not bologna. If you read the introduction to the chart, you'll see that the numbers are to be used to compare animal to animal, not breed to breed. Just what Whitecow said.

From your link:

The across breed adjustment factors allow breeders to compare EPDS of animals from different breeds....

It is important to note the table factors (Table 1) do not represent a direct comparison between different breeds....

EPDs will never, ever tell you what something will weigh. They just allow you to expect Bull A's calves to weigh 50 more pounds at weaning than Bull B's calves because he has a 50 lb WW compared to B's 0 WW EPD.
 

cypressfarms

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"Normally, the EPDs of bulls from different
breeds cannot be compared because most breed associations compute their EPDs in separate
analyses and each breed has a different base point. The across-breed adjustment factors allow
producers to compare the EPDs for animals from different breeds for these traits; these factors
reflect both the current breed difference (for animals born in 2007) and differences in the breed
base point. They should only be used with EPDs current as of July 2009 because of potential
changes in EPD calculations from year-to-year."

The above statement was copied from the Marc 2009 study I referenced above.

First, I do not believe that any EPD will give you exacts: By this I mean that the Marc study will show averages not exact pinpoint amounts. It is impossible to say that a Charolais will wean calves 41 pounds heavier, because the Marc study deals with many animals, not one.

Second, I really get a kick how people seem to ignore breed differences. It is a proven fact that Charolais will sire calves that wean heavier than Angus, for example, with other factors being held constant and assuming that the cow base used is not the same breed as either bulls. How can this be disputed? On the last page of the Marc report they even have a chart which shows weaning weights for various breeds.

As a cow/calfer it's in my best interest to take information like the Marc study, consider local factors which affect demand, and pick the bull which will provide me the most potential for profit.

Example: Black calves bring the most $ here, so using a cow/bull combination that does not produce black will cost me money. That deduction in sales price must be tempered by the calves sales weight. If a Charolais bull throws gray calves crossed with my cows, will they weigh more than my current bulls' calves, and will this difference in weight be offset by the difference in price? These are factors that must be considered to be as profitable as possible. I need to know what types/colors of calves bring the most and by how much to make an informed decision. The Marc study helps, in that it gives me an indication of the difference a bull may make. The Marc study is a tool. There are many tools in my cattle toolbox. Each one is important. How can someone ignore a tool that may help your operation?
 

bigag03

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Ok Cypress, I was trying to be helpful and correct your way of using the data because you are using it INCORRECTLY. But since you want to attack me, then here we go.

You clearly have no idea what the be nice you are talking about! It is people like you that make it difficult to hold a real and helpful conversation because you think you know it all. You don't. By your statements, you clearly have no idea how to use EPDs or how they are calculated to start with.

I in NO way said that the MARC data wasn't useful, however any data used incorrectly will hurt worse than not using it at all.

Yes, Charolais sired calves on average will weigh more at weaning than calves sired by other breeds, but you in NO way know by how much (assuming a random sampling of bulls) unless you have put the study in place in your environment. Even Dr. Thallman (at MARC) would tell you that the actual data collected at MARC does not mean much to most producers (unless your ranch happens to be right down the road from Clay Center); however, the breed DIFFERENCES are very important and are our only real data available for comparing these breed differences as the breeds change over time. Then you have to take into consideration not only the actual differences but also the differences in the EPD databases in terms of the calculation, breed averages and other variations. The Across Breed EPD chart is designed to take all of these variables into account and give the best estimate for comparison of INDIVIDUAL animals from different breeds. As Frankie said, EPDs NEVER correspond to a specific measurement but yet the difference in the average measurements from progeny in two different sire groups.

Also remember that there will be more variation in these differences using this table because you are combining an EPD with a certain degree of error with a table that also has a certain degree of error.

Now to Hybrid Vigor 101 that you obviously missed.
100% hybrid vigor statement…
I did not use any word in that statement that said the "greatest" or "highest" or "most performance" in comparison to any other breed combination. I said 100% direct hybrid vigor which means (using my previous example) that an F1 Charolais-Hereford cross calf will, based on the dominance model, exhibit 100% of the maximum hybrid vigor FOR THAT PARTICULAR CROSS because it is 100% heterozygous. If you were to use a Charolais bull back on F1 CHxHH cows, the resulting calves would exhibit, again based on the dominance model, 50% of the maximum direct heterosis for a CHxHH cross and would also take advantage of 100% of the maximum maternal heterosis because of the F1 CHxHH dam.
Using the Across Breed EPD table…
If you have Angus cows and want to compare a Hereford bull to a Charolais bull, the table works great provided you know the EPD profile of each individual bull from the respective breed association. The reason this works is that calves sired by each bull will be 100% heterozygous and thus exhibit maximum (100%) heterosis for each cross. Now, that does not mean that the CHxAN calves will have the same measurement of heterosis as the HHxAN calves it means they will have the maximum possible heterosis within each breed combination which is accounted for in the MARC data. If you used these same bulls on F1 HHxCH cows, again the table works all progeny would have the same degree of heterozygosity (50%).
Where the table does NOT WORK is when you have (as I said earlier) Hereford cows in the same situation. In this scenario you have Hereford sired calves with 0% heterozygosity and thus 0 hybrid vigor versus Charolais sired calve with maximum hybrid vigor due to 100% heterozygosity.

I will quit for now, but as I am sure I have talked over your head, feel free to ask any questions you might have. I would even be happy, if you would like, to provide numerous scientific articles detailing the dominance model as a means of predicting hybrid vigor.
 

Frankie

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cypressfarms":4lxkl8kf said:
"Normally, the EPDs of bulls from different
breeds cannot be compared because most breed associations compute their EPDs in separate
analyses and each breed has a different base point. The across-breed adjustment factors allow
producers to compare the EPDs for animals from different breeds for these traits; these factors
reflect both the current breed difference (for animals born in 2007) and differences in the breed
base point. They should only be used with EPDs current as of July 2009 because of potential
changes in EPD calculations from year-to-year."

The above statement was copied from the Marc 2009 study I referenced above.

Yes, it's says compare ANIMALS, not breeds.

First, I do not believe that any EPD will give you exacts: By this I mean that the Marc study will show averages not exact pinpoint amounts. It is impossible to say that a Charolais will wean calves 41 pounds heavier, because the Marc study deals with many animals, not one.

That's why the E stands for Expected, not Exact.

Second, I really get a kick how people seem to ignore breed differences. It is a proven fact that Charolais will sire calves that wean heavier than Angus, for example, with other factors being held constant and assuming that the cow base used is not the same breed as either bulls. How can this be disputed? On the last page of the Marc report they even have a chart which shows weaning weights for various breeds.

It's not a proven fact that Chars will sire calves that wean heavier than Angus. You believe in the MARC data, look at this:

Angus bull Sitz Identity, AAA #14949480, has a BW EPD of 2, WW of 70 and YW of 131. Add the MARC adjustment factor of 0 and you get BW 2, WW 70 and YW 131.

The ABS Charolais bull Wrangler has a BW EPD of -6.3, WW 21 and YW 45. Add the MARC adjustment factors of 9.7, 38 and 52 and you get these EPDs: BW 3.4, WW 59 and YW of 97. Obviously, his numbers don't match up with the Angus.

Does that mean that the Angus breed produces heavier calves? No, it means this MARC data should be used to compare two bulls; not two breeds.

As a cow/calfer it's in my best interest to take information like the Marc study, consider local factors which affect demand, and pick the bull which will provide me the most potential for profit.

Example: Black calves bring the most $ here, so using a cow/bull combination that does not produce black will cost me money. That deduction in sales price must be tempered by the calves sales weight. If a Charolais bull throws gray calves crossed with my cows, will they weigh more than my current bulls' calves, and will this difference in weight be offset by the difference in price? These are factors that must be considered to be as profitable as possible. I need to know what types/colors of calves bring the most and by how much to make an informed decision. The Marc study helps, in that it gives me an indication of the difference a bull may make. The Marc study is a tool. There are many tools in my cattle toolbox. Each one is important. How can someone ignore a tool that may help your operation?

The MARC adjustment factors were created to help producers compare individual bulls across breeds. That's what they do. They do NOT compare breeds.
 

cypressfarms

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The old Cypress would jump on this and fuel the fire with gasoline. However, over the last seven months I've developed more patience and the ability to really understand what's important in life - so with that in mind, I'll reply with only a few statements:

First, Frankie everyone knows that your true blue angus, and will argue past when the cows come home about your beloved breed. Just ask some of our longhorn CT friends. I respect the fact that you are dedicated to a breed, heck I make money from the breed that you so dearly love. bigag03, I have no idea who you are or where you come from and from your insistance on insulting my intelligence I don't really care. I've seen you call other members "naive", ludicrous, and even tell a well respected member on CT " you LISTEN and LEARN". You seem to have a disdain for commercial cattlemen and think that we all are ignorant back woods retards. I particularly loved reading your "soapbox statements". There is such a thing as kindness to others - not sure if your aware of that. You appear to be doing precisely what you say I'm doing (trying to act like some know it all and your case putting people down in the process) Look back at my posts over the years and see if I am a know it all who imposes his own beliefs on everyone else. To the contrary, I have many friends on this board and try to post threads that are entertaining and informative to all.

Second, My reasoning for starting this post is that I believe that Marc puts out some excellent studies and the more tools commercial cattlemen have to make decisions, the better. I am not trying to compare any breed to another, but if I'm buying bulls I'm definitely looking at that sires EPD's and comparing that individual to other sires that I may be consider buying. Again, EPD's are a tool, not an end all be all. For a seedstock producer like Frankie EPD comparisons may not have as much value, but for a commercial cattleman, it could well be the difference between making a profit and not.

Third, as much as bigag03 wants to believe it, he is not talking over my head. Doesn't really make a difference (I don't tout it), but I am a graduate of LSU, and have gone to many classes regarding cattle production including several Master cattlemen classes. I know what hybrid vigor is, and the formula to compute it as well. I wouldn't talk about a normal 3/8 - 5/8 cross (like Braford for example) without knowing that they have a risidual hybrid vigor of about 47%. Basic hybrid vigor has it's origins in gene diversity - which can only effectively be achieved through crossbreeding. I'm also aware of the downfalls of "outbreeding depression" and "backcrossing".

In closing I like to invite you to re-read the original post I made. It's intended for commercial cattlemen, and intended to spark conversation/thinking about ways to improve calf output. If A particular charolais bull will in fact throw calves that wean heavier that a particular Angus bull, then it's to my advantage to use that bull - If the price difference/demand for those gray calves will make it profitable. Tools, my friends, are what it's about. Our ability to use information to our advantage may well determine if we can stay in business with other countries going at our throat with competition.

Have a good day, I'm going bring my son fishing!
 

bigag03

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Cypress,

I have never made a point to talk down to or bash anyone on this board. I attacked your intelligence only after you came after me (that doesn't make it right, but let's call a spade a spade). I don't post much on this board, mostly read only and put my 2 cents in only where I have the knowlege and experience to offer useful information (you have obviously looked up all of my posts, did you notice that most are regarding only a couple of subjects?).

I do not have a disdain for commercial producers. I work with great ones every day that I view as great cattlemen. Without commercial producers the seedstock industry doesn't exist.

I apologize if I have at any point offended anyone on this board. I will try to be nicer in the future, and if you don't think the information I post is useful then it is no skin off my nose just to go back to reading only.

As to the MARC data, it is a great tool if used correctly to compare individuals. I do agree with you that every commercial producer should be looking at his bottom line and incorporating every tool available to make the most informed decision and hopefully the most profitable decision.
 

CSM

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The Marc data was not intended to compare breeds, but I think you can if you approach it correctly. If you assume all angus bulls have the breed average weaning weight of 45 pounds. Marc ww of 0 plus angus epd ww of 45 equals 45. Charolais Marc ww of 41 plus breed average of ww epd of 24 equal 65 pounds. The difference would be 20 pounds. This would be the only way you could compare breeds and not individuals.

CSM
 

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