different day, different judge

[Ryan]

Its amazing to me to see the different placings to judges can produce in a show. At the Dixie National this weekend the two judges (Open & Youth) placed pretty much the same animals pretty close to exactly opposite. At the youth show we had 8 animals, none placed above 3rd (and we only had 1 3rd place animal) and in the Open show none placed below 3rd (again with only 1 third place animal). Both the grand champion and reserve grand champion open females got last in there respective classes in the youth show, and the grand champion female in the youth show got 2nd out of 2 in the open show. The reserve grand champion bull in the open show got 2nd to last out of 6 or 7 in the youth show, and the grand champion youth bull got last out of 5 in the open show (both mentioned bulls were in the same class).

I am not saying who is right or who is wrong (although I do have my opinion). Both judges did their job, gave their opinions and we move on. I understand there are differences between judges, but this was pretty extreme. The youth show judge was a Longhorn breeder from Indiana who, from my understanding, had only judged once before. The open show judge had an agriculture/beef cattle related degree from OK State and now worked at Michigan State Univ.

Just a lil rambling... thanks for listening.

 

[Rustler9]

Well, I wasn't there but I know the judge from Indiana. I know that she's a Longhorn breeder and she wants to see characteristics of the breed in the animals being shown. I also know from being at that particular show in the past as well as other shows that alot of animals are being shown that are lacking in these qualities. I won't rehash this with you as no one wins in these debates but there are some serious issues in the sub breed of Longhorn (aka show cattle) as a rule. As Longhorn breeders, there are many different approaches to each individual breeding program. This is very clear as one looks over the various breeders' animals. There's absolutely nothing wrong with anyone breeding for a better conformation and improving on the breed as a whole but this is still the Longhorn breed-not Limousin or Simmental. Not that there's anything wrong with those breeds but that's not what we're breeding.

I certainly hope that we as a whole can bring back the Longhorn breed as it should be especially since the association is going through some (I hope for the better) changes. The old administration allowed way too much freedom in the way these cattle have been bred and shown. I certainly hope that blood typing for one can be brought back into the scheme of things. I believe that other breed associations allow it and it certainly needs to be brought back into this one.

 

[Ryan]

Roger,
I understand what you are saying.

This post was really more about the different judging styles of different judges, and how this weekend just showed the extreme of that issue. Even two breeders choose differently and two "beef judges" or "university" judges choose differently. Even the same person can place them differently on different days. Its just one persons opinion on that day. I find it very interesting....

Ryan

 

[Ryan]

Well, I wasn't there but I know the judge from Indiana. I know that she's a Longhorn breeder and she wants to see characteristics of the breed in the animals being shown. I

She did say "Longhorn characteristics" a lot when talking... however she never really said what that was when she was giving her reasons. I know she is a breeder and reasons are not really a breeder judges' strong suit, but i thought there were instances she contradicted herself. Like, when she was talking about the grand champion bull and how he was "the best walking, best strided bull in the class" and the bull short stepped by atleast 18 inches and looked as if he was prancing versus actually walking.

 

[Keren]

Interesting post Ryan. Its funny a few years ago when I was still showing with a school, I had a hoof n hook steer. I took him round in the schools middleweight class and he placed first. Then I took him round the open middleweight class - there were only five extra entries, and he placed fourth - behind three school entries that had placed below him in the schools class. And get this - it was the same judge!

 

[Maineshowgirl]

Talking about the judges never gets old. I know you can't win all the shows but it would help if they would give a clear reason why they place you the way they do. Just got back from SA last week showing Jr heifers the judges reason for all the one he placed lower in the class is they were corse in there neck and shoulder, well after saying that about ten head of calves, I think its time to find another reson to get them out of the ring. So what breed of cattle was she talking about needing Longhorn in them. I myself don't know of to many people who show Longhorn X cattle. Now if it a Longhorn show that's diffent but I havn't seen to many Maine X Longhorns or any thing like that winning the shows. That's just me. GOOD LUCK !!!!

 

[*Cowgirl*]

I agree, talking bout judges never gets old. Sometimes I wonder................

Drug a heifer around last year. In half of the shows the judges loved her front end structure. The other half said they knocked her down for it. whatever?

Showmanship judges esp. ruffle my feathers. when your heifer somehow ends up in a really screwed up position, do you pull out of line, pull bback in and correcet it? I do. Once I had a judge tell me that it was better to have a bad foot position then to pull out of line. Once I was told that I should have pulled out of line to correct a position. Arg. Now I just listen to the classes before me to find out what he's looking for.

Alright that's my rant for the morning. Climbing off my high horse.

 

[Richburg]

what breed are you talking about....just curious

 

[BC]

I agree, talking bout judges never gets old. Sometimes I wonder................

Showmanship judges esp. ruffle my feathers. when your heifer somehow ends up in a really screwed up position, do you pull out of line, pull bback in and correcet it? I do. Once I had a judge tell me that it was better to have a bad foot position then to pull out of line. Once I was told that I should have pulled out of line to correct a position. Arg. Now I just listen to the classes before me to find out what he's looking for.

Alright that's my rant for the morning. Climbing off my high horse.

Showmanship is about personal likes and dislikes.

 

[*Cowgirl*]

I agree, talking bout judges never gets old. Sometimes I wonder................

Showmanship judges esp. ruffle my feathers. when your heifer somehow ends up in a really screwed up position, do you pull out of line, pull bback in and correcet it? I do. Once I had a judge tell me that it was better to have a bad foot position then to pull out of line. Once I was told that I should have pulled out of line to correct a position. Arg. Now I just listen to the classes before me to find out what he's looking for.

Alright that's my rant for the morning. Climbing off my high horse.

Showmanship is about personal likes and dislikes.

I know, I know, but it can still be irritating.

what breed are you talking about....just curious

We've got chis

our extension agent always says: if you haul them calves to enough shows, eventually, you're gonna find a judge that likes em.

 

[Ryan]

I know you can't win all the shows but it would help if they would give a clear reason why they place you the way they do.

So true. Not winning doesnt bother me too much, IF the judge tells me why. As long as I know why I am beat by a certain animal then i'm usually okay with it.

 

[Ryan]

So what breed of cattle was she talking about needing Longhorn in them. I myself don't know of to many people who show Longhorn X cattle. Now if it a Longhorn show that's diffent but I havn't seen to many Maine X Longhorns or any thing like that winning the shows. That's just me. GOOD LUCK !!!!

The judge didnt think an animal needed longhorn blood in it. the show was actually a Longhorn show. simply put... Rustler9 was just saying that he thinks that longhorns that are in the shows are crossbred.

 

[Rustler9]

Ryan, Are you saying that the judge made a statement that those cattle in the show didn't need to have Longhorn blood in them? I find that hard to believe. I also don't think she would state that those animals aren't all Longhorn whether she believed that or not. Of course, I feel that alot of the animals that are being shown are not quite what they should be but since blood typing isn't done on them anymore, who's to say? And I've also seen plenty that look as if they are a good bit older than they say on paper. I'm sure you have too.

I heard that there were people there at the show who kept mentioning that they have regular Longhorns at home. What does that mean I wonder? Maybe the true Longhorns are still in the pasture but the super cattle are at the show. You know, the thing that really bothers me about alot of those cattle is that new people come along and they are fed this big line of this is what a Longhorn should look like and we both know that's not true. I keep waiting for the first polled one to be brought to a show. I'd love to hear the reasoning on that one. Oh yeah, it was just born that way. Looks like that's where the breed is headed if the show folks keep up up their good work. ;-)

 

[Ryan]

Ryan, Are you saying that the judge made a statement that those cattle in the show didn't need to have Longhorn blood in them? I find that hard to believe. I also don't think she would state that those animals aren't all Longhorn whether she believed that or not.

I was just saying that the judge did not say a certain animal needed longhorn blood. I think the person I quoted was thinking there was an animal of breed X that needed longhorn blood in it. The judge never once said anything about the purity of the cattle in the classes... then again she really didnt say anything about the animals in the classes.

 

[Ryan]

I heard that there were people there at the show who kept mentioning that they have regular Longhorns at home. What does that mean I wonder?

I did not ever hear this comment. However, if I had heard it and not knowing the circumstances, I would take it to believe that the "regular longhorns" were the middle of the road, nice animals, that didnt quite make the grade as show animals. I've got 6 or 7 heifers that i dont show... nice heifers, just not quite show quality.

 

[Maineshowgirl]

What I thought you meant was that the judge you were showing for , raised Longhorn and liked to see longhorns Vs other breeds. But how you talk it was a Longhorn show thats why. Sorry I thought yall were show something esle and got a Longhorn Judge. I'm waiting to see a polled Longhorn. LOL. :lol:

 

[Rustler9]

No, it was a Longhorn show. One of the judges was a Longhorn breeder and the other was a beef judge with an Ag degree I believe. From time to time, different shows will use a person who is from another breed or breeds and this is ok as long as the person has been educated on Longhorns and what characteristics to look for in that particular breed. I believe anyone can judge a breed of cattle as long as they've read up on the breed and the attributes and characteristics of that particular breed. But, unfortunately in our breed the show majority of Longhorn cattle are being bred to look like something else. They've strayed far off course from the breed that they're supposed to be representing. Now, keep in mind that I have no problem with conditioning an animal and I know that not every animal is a prospect for showing. But many of these animals have been changed into something that kind of show their Longhorn heritage but also show traits of other influences in them. This I totally have a problem with and I know many other people who do as well. I would guess that this also happens in other breeds as well but it's a slap in the face to people who have worked hard to build up a breed and maintain it's purity and then have to look at animals that resemble another breed much more than what they are supposedly representing. To top it off, blood typing has been done away with to protect them. Hopefully, since our breed's President/CEO has been ousted for alot of other under handed activity that some of these things can be brought back in to the association to help curb some of the things that have been going on and get the association back to where it needs to be.

 

[Ryan]

No, it was a Longhorn show. One of the judges was a Longhorn breeder and the other was a beef judge with an Ag degree I believe. From time to time, different shows will use a person who is from another breed or breeds and this is ok as long as the person has been educated on Longhorns and what characteristics to look for in that particular breed. I believe anyone can judge a breed of cattle as long as they've read up on the breed and the attributes and characteristics of that particular breed. But, unfortunately in our breed the show majority of Longhorn cattle are being bred to look like something else. They've strayed far off course from the breed that they're supposed to be representing. Now, keep in mind that I have no problem with conditioning an animal and I know that not every animal is a prospect for showing. But many of these animals have been changed into something that kind of show their Longhorn heritage but also show traits of other influences in them. This I totally have a problem with and I know many other people who do as well. I would guess that this also happens in other breeds as well but it's a slap in the face to people who have worked hard to build up a breed and maintain it's purity and then have to look at animals that resemble another breed much more than what they are supposedly representing. To top it off, blood typing has been done away with to protect them. Hopefully, since our breed's President/CEO has been ousted for alot of other under handed activity that some of these things can be brought back in to the association to help curb some of the things that have been going on and get the association back to where it needs to be.

This is just one opinion on the breed. I believe that, although there might have been some outside influences in some animals. The vast majority of the the Texas Longhorns in the show ring are animals that have been improved through tough selection, culling and management among other things. Just because they do not have the huge horns like some of the animals in the breed today, and they do have meat on their bones many people think they are not true longhorns. Which to me is somewhat hypocritical because longhorns have been so different throughout the years that there has never been really a set phenotype on which a Longhorn must look like. I breed to have structurally correct animals with above average muscling, fertile animals, long-living animals, that are hardy in our area, and can go out and win our World Show. Since we cannot eat horns and the horns have zero influence in procreation or calf rearing the horns are not a major influence in decision making when it comes to selection. However, we do understand the importance of the horns in the breed so all of our longhorns do have them, and we commend those individuals who produce animals that can work, raise a calf, have acceptable structure and also have exceptional horn growth.

One of the many, many things that is great about mine, and Rustler9's chosen breed is that there so many different phenotypes and colors and direction to go in Texas Longhorns everyone can find something they like. From traditionalist or purist who raise animals that look like they did back in 1865 to progressive breeders who are looking to add more beef to the longhorn to other progressive breeders who are looking to have 90 inch horned animals, and everyone in between, Texas Longhorns have many purposes. No one of these purposes is more or less important than the other and they all have their place in the breed. Along these lines... Texas Longhorn breeders select different paths and think theirs is the best path, but at the end of the day (even after some debating) breeders from the different paths can usually come together and be friends. Just because they disagree doesnt mean they are disagreable.

Ryan