Diesel Trucks

[flaboy+]

But Rod! Let's talk real world here! We are not talking about 11 second dragsters or tractor pull machines. Pick up trucks are the subject. I am certain someone can design a diesel engine with 10,000 ft lbs of torque. My question all along is why pay for it when my 1640 ft lb V10 is more than adequate?

To what Rod said, the fastest Power Stroke I am aware of is 11.5 sec 1/4 and far from stock. Like Rod my miss-spent childhood was buried in motors of all types. If it had a motor, I needed to make it faster. Seemed like a challenge to me. I still dabble in them when time permits.

To Cathy I say, my experience is both with gas powered trucks and diesel powered trucks. If you ever hook up to a load with a diesel powered truck I suspect you will NEVER go back to gas. I have pulled with both and the diesel wins hands down. I recommended the diesel to a friends some years ago and he bought a gas powered Ford. He thought he was in high cotton until we pulled together one day and I was running a 7.3 diesel at the time. I pulled up beside him to get him to turn on his radio and looked surprised to see me. He got on the radio and said "what gear you in"? I said overdrive. Then I went on by. He came back and asked me slow down as he didn't want to hurt his truck because he couldn't run in overdrive. He later bought a 6 liter from my build sheet and thanks me every time I see him. He too had the "I don't need to spend $5000 extra for no diesel attitude.

Bottom line is if you never pull with a diesel or against one, you will never know what you are missing I guess. You will just plug along and think it is normal.

I have V10 experience also and know there is no comparison. If don't pull heavy loads often, you don't pull far, and you don't mind holding up traffic while you get rolling, you will probably be happy with the V10.
;-)
JMHO

 

[norriscathy]

As I've said before! If Dun will help us we"ll Run for pink slips in the Ozarks!! Only way to settle this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[flaboy+]

As I've said before! If Dun will help us we"ll Run for pink slips in the Ozarks!! Only way to settle this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Don't kid around, I ran for pinks a couple times when I was a kid. Fortunately I was always the receiver. Looking back, being poor and putting myself through school, it wasn't the smartest thing I ever did. Most of the time they had something I didn't want anyway and they would just give me $$$ to keep their junk.

If it weren't so far away I might attend. I could always tow the Mustang with the Power Stroke. Now if Rod is coming I may not need to show up.
;-)

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

Now if Rod is coming I may not need to show up.

:lol: I'd be all over that. If I knew where the heck the Ozarks were....

:lol:

Rod

 

[El_Putzo]

Come on down Rod. You can stay at my place if you like, I'm only about 1 hour north of Dun. I'd be happy to see the look on norriscathy's face when she is handing over her pink slip!! :lol: :lol:

 

[Saltydawg]

When I run quartermiles I'm doing it in this: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v400/ ... vette4.jpg
(yes thats my ugly mug in the picture)


I've got a 79 Ford 1Ton I've worked over a bit that I'll hook bumper to bumper against anything that comes off the dealer lot . (460 with an Accel fuel injection setup and a modified paxton blower)

My newest project is a 74 Chevy I hauled up from North Carolina (clean as whistle). I've got a 454 sitting out back in a run down old chevy supercab dually.

I'll see about getting some internet worthy pictures of my trucks...all I have is a bunch of polaroids at the moment.


I'm willing to bet Norriscathy has towed a couple things with their Ford V-10 and was quite happy with its performance...which is why the question about what makes diesels so much "better".

I can bash Diamond and Flaboy over the head with engineering books and formulas all day long and they will still think their diesels are the greatest things on the planet...for one reason or another .

Norriscathy just remember they are comparing their turbocharged diesels with your normally aspirated V-10.

Slap a turbo on your V-10 to even the score up and watch the diesel guys start telling you how much better their durability and fuel efficiency is .

Oh and I still don't believe an 8200lb truck does 11 seconds in a quartermile with only 550hp hehe. Physics says its not possible.

I have a buddy who swears to god he broke 160 mph in his stock Pontiac GTO and still had some pedal left. Course he dont have the car anymore so can't prove it .

 

[Saltydawg]

This is the fastest diesel truck I could find believable results for.

Gale Banks (probably the biggest name in deisel performance) and his project Sidewinder.

12.16 second 1/4mile run.

Used a modified Cummins turbo diesel shoehorned into a Dodge Dakota. Vehicle weighed 4900lb's.

http://www.bankspower.com/sidewinder-dragrace.cfm

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

:lol: The 1/4 mile run you're quoting was Bank's first efforts at the 1/4 mile in a truck that broke the pickup truck land speed record in Bonneville at 222.139 mph. The only change that Bank's made to run that 1/4 mile was a change to a 47RE Dodge automatic, with stock gear ratios and upgraded clutches to hold the torque. They never swapped out the 2.75:1 rear gearing.

Plug those numbers into your engineering books Bear in mind that most of your engineering formulas that you'll find in textbooks that could be used to predict 1/4mile times, trap speeds and HP are almost certainly for normally aspirated engines. Turbocharger spoolup is a biggy, as this has a big influence on your bottom side torque. And since 2003, elevation has played an ever increasing part in 1/4 mile times. By fooling the elevation sensor, we shaved 2.5 seconds off the ET of a stock 2003 pickup truck.

BTW, Banks engineering is considered a joke in diesel performance circles. They have yet to improve that 12 second quarter, while guys with street trucks are posting high 11 seconds.

I let my membership at the Turbo Diesel Register lapse, so I can't view the competition forums, however if you take a few minutes and prowl http://www.dhraonline.com, you'll find sanctioned results from NHRA certified tracks.

"Physics says its not possible."

Yer readin' the wrong physics books.

Rod

 

[norriscathy]

Yes saltydawg; we did a "little pulling"; forty 300 mile round trips through the Ozarks last summer pulling a 8,000 # trailer and 15,000# of hay. We were running 30 mph uphill and only turning 3,000 rpms. Since my V10 develops its max HP (362) at 4,750 rpm, does this mean we had POWER TO BURN!

We've just got to have this pull off so everyone can watch those diesels get blown away!

 

[flaboy+]

We've just got to have this pull off so everyone can watch those diesels get blown away!

Yeah sure Cathy :heart: Sounds like you need to chain a diesel to the front of your truck to help you up those hills. Heck he will probably tell ya to just turn your engine off as you won't help him much. :lol:

Salty, go ahead and put the turbo on the V10. Then you will still be behind. Go with a Super Charger to catch up with the diesels and you have spent more than what you could have bought the diesel option for in the first place. This and the gas motor won't last long working it that hard. The V10 was made for the Rhinestone cowboys and girls. :lol2: Oh, and I'm sorry there are no 11 second trucks around. Got your wallet handy?

The super charger for Mustang I was going to bring along to the "pinks" run was over $5500 cost with no labor.

Ah anyway, what I said was hook up to the same loads to a diesel and you will be ruined for life. Seriously though, the V10 is very good. Just not good enough. Of course as always, whatever floats your boat. :lol2:

 

[flaboy+]

Oh, one more thing Salty. That 74 454 you have in that old truck outback is a high polution, low compression engine had a whopping 230 horse power. Don't just love those big blocks that don't make any HP.

 

[norriscathy]

Flaboy; being born and raised outside of Jacksonville it really pains me to have to agree with a Yankee over a fellow Floridian (especially an NEW YORK Yankee!) ,but you're all wet on this one. Anytime your ready!!!

 

[Saltydawg]

Worlds fastest Diesel drag racing vehicle:

Http://www.cumminsracing.com

World's fastest alcohol/gas powered drag racing vehicle:

Didn't bother looking on account the diesel isn't even close to what the average alcohl dragster runs lol. Theres over a 3 second difference. (average runs are upper 4 seconds...good runs in mid 4's)


Watching diesels drag race is like watching the special olympics :lol: .

K now tell us about your improved durability and better mpg :lol: .

Oh I'm still waiting for that 11 second truck that WEIGHS 8200lbs.

 

[El_Putzo]

I'm going to use a quote from another thread and say "this thread is losing it's focus"

How many loads do you intend to pull with your alcohol burning, blown engine??????

I thought this thread was about practical trucks that can be used to pull a load?

All other variables aside, a diesel engine produces more torque (i.e. pulling power) than a comparable gas engine. There is no ifs ands or buts about it. Sure, I can theoretically put a 27:1 gear ratio in my Honda 300 fourwheeler and it might pull 20,000 lbs up a 6% grade at .275 mph, but it's not PRACTICAL!!!!

We can go back and forth all day changing variables like gearing and adding aftermarket options, but are we really answering anyone's question.

Just my thoughts.

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

1) Didn't bother looking on account the diesel isn't even close to what the average alcohl dragster runs lol. Theres over a 3 second difference. (average runs are upper 4 seconds...good runs in mid 4's)

2) Watching diesels drag race is like watching the special olympics :lol: .

3) Oh I'm still waiting for that 11 second truck that WEIGHS 8200lbs.

1) How long have people been racing gas engines? Since they were created? Diesel engines haven't been seriously looked at as an alternative for racing until the past few years. Heck, in the relatively short time I was building diesel engines, we went from 18 second 1/4 mile norms down to 13 second norms. All in street driven trucks, who maintain 18 mpg and lose very little longevity.

2) No need to get nasty, but I guess its whatever floats your boat. The first diesel drags that SIR ever held were so popular, they opened up a couple classes during their regular race days. Its a huge draw, especially when street driven duallies are laying waste to Mustangs and Vettes. Everybody likes the underdog.

3) I sent you the link. Three trucks off hand that make 11 seconds are Meachim Evins (he'd just made mods to get 10s, and then burnt it up when the rack hung up. BTW, he was driving his truck to work when it happened), Trevor Woods (Trev's truck is a bit of an odd duck. He dynos 640 HP, but when he races, we have to detune and move the torque peak back earlier in the powerband to suit his DTT gearing), and Rip Rook. Chris Hufnagle is making 11s on straight diesel, but I don't know anything about his truck at all.

Rod

 

[flaboy+]

Flaboy; being born and raised outside of Jacksonville it really pains me to have to agree with a Yankee over a fellow Floridian (especially an NEW YORK Yankee!) ,but you're all wet on this one. Anytime your ready!!!

All wet on what? I just said hook them up to the same load and then make a decision. Also to agree with a yankee is blasphemy! When Crowder gets elected President, this might be a capital offence. :lol:

I said the V10 was a good truck. What more do you want? :heart:

When your V10 will smoke a 5 liter Mustang between red lights let me know. It is quite obvious to me that neither you or the yank have ever driven or run against a good new diesel.

 

[Saltydawg]

I'm going to use a quote from another thread and say "this thread is losing it's focus"

How many loads do you intend to pull with your alcohol burning, blown engine??????

I thought this thread was about practical trucks that can be used to pull a load?

All other variables aside, a diesel engine produces more torque (i.e. pulling power) than a comparable gas engine. There is no ifs ands or buts about it. Sure, I can theoretically put a 27:1 gear ratio in my Honda 300 fourwheeler and it might pull 20,000 lbs up a 6% grade at .275 mph, but it's not PRACTICAL!!!!

We can go back and forth all day changing variables like gearing and adding aftermarket options, but are we really answering anyone's question.

Just my thoughts.

I agree entirely .

The Ford v-10 makes 455lb/ft of torque @ 2800 rpm. Not too shabby by anyones standards and more than enough to haul about any load you'd want to put behind a light truck.

Diesels are built heavier and make their power at lower rpms...which means they last longer.
They run at double the compresion ratios of a gas motor and because of their lower rpm's they get better fuel mileage.
They are also a 6grand option on most model trucks and cost a truckload more money to repair when compared to most gas engines.

Gas engines are quieter, smoother, and make more than enough power to haul most loads.
They accelerate faster and are nicer for daily driving and cheaper to repair.

Diamond brought drag racing into the discussion and i wasn't trying to be nasty with the special olympics joke...it was just a joke.
I only attempted to explain horsepower and torque cause most people have the wrong idea what Horsepower is.

Most people think Horsepower equals acceleration, and this is wrong.

Horsepower is a measure of the ammount of work done over a given period of time. More Horsepower = more work done.

Peak torque figures tell you where your engine makes its best pulling power.
Peak Horsepower tells you what the engine is ultimately capable of.

A higher horsepower motor will ALWAYS be capable of doing more work.
Gearing and other considerations might not make it practical to use all of an engines power but the option is there.

If you want to pull out all the stops and see which type of engine is capable of putting out the most power......the gas motor is gonna win everytime.

Oh yea, Diamond, those 11 secconds trucks are all running drag slicks, nitrous, and weigh about 5000lbs.

You would need about 800 horsepower to move ANY vehicle that weighed 8200lbs into 11 second range.

 

[El_Putzo]

1) Gas engines are quieter, smoother,


2) Horsepower is a measure of the ammount of work done over a given period of time. More Horsepower = more work done.

3) A higher horsepower motor will ALWAYS be capable of doing more work.

4) If you want to pull out all the stops and see which type of engine is capable of putting out the most power......the gas motor is gonna win everytime.

1) Not anymore, have you been in any of the new diesels? You can barely hear them running.

2) Your first statement is correct, Horsepower is a measure of the ammount of work done over a given period of time. But, more HP does Not mean more work done, it does mean the work can be done in a shorter amount of time.

3) If this is true, let me pose this question to you. Your gas engine in a pickup runs around 350 hp and you say 455lb/ft of torque, right? My Kenworth dump truck (converted road tractor) has a 350 hp cummins diesel in it. From what you say, your pickup will pull the same amount as my dump truck. They do afterall have the same HP. Would you like to hook these bumper to bumper? And don't tell me gearing has anything to do with it either, because my dump truck will easily run 80 mph down the highway right next to your pickup. Please explain this anomoly?

4) That is debatable. It depends on what your definition of power is. Is power being able to go from 0-300 mph in 4 seconds? If so, then yeah, the gas engine is going to be capable of more power. But, if your definition of power is being able to pull 100 train cars loaded with freight, your gas motor ain't gonna cut it.

I have had enough physics classes to know the difference between HP and TQ. I've also owned both gas and diesel trucks and would not go back to a gas, for doing any type of pulling, with the exception of a sled. :lol:

Different strokes for different folks.

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

1) Oh yea, Diamond, those 11 secconds trucks are all running drag slicks, nitrous, and weigh about 5000lbs.

2) You would need about 800 horsepower to move ANY vehicle that weighed 8200lbs into 11 second range.

1) Ummm, no. You didn't read what I posted. The 11 second trucks that I told you about were STRAIGHT diesel. Launch is done in 4WD, and then knocked into 2WD about halfway down the 1/4.

There were a couple straight diesel 2WD trucks running slicks, but they never really performed. The most promising was Noel Thomas, but he died 2 years ago, so his work was left incomplete.

Heres a good thread:
http://www.dieseltruckresource.com/dev/ ... hp?t=69098 Not all of these numbers have been verified by independent sources, but the 11 second and 12 second trucks are all verified. Pay close attention to the 3rd 11 second truck. No drugs, and very few engine modifications. That truck will be under 600 HP, and very likely closer to 550 or 575.

2) You're using the formula I alluded to earlier thats for normally aspirated engines. Or you're using one of the websites that use the formula. It doesn't apply here.

That formula often used is ET = cube root of weight/HP x 5.825. The 5.825 is a constant developed in 1986 by a drag racer and enginer named Patrick Hale. As turbocharger technologies change, that constant has been changing. Even Hale himself agrees that the formula don't apply to turbo diesel trucks.

As far as the thread losing focus. I apologize. I was simply combatting the misunderstanding that diesel trucks won't out accelerate gas engine trucks. They will. Easily. And the only people who feel they can't or won't are those who haven't bothered to actually drive one.

'Nuff said as this topic has now come full circle, and an agreement will never be reached.

Rod

 

[flaboy+]

Well Rod I guess a picture might help this guy. 6 liter Ford PowerStroke owned by Gene Feildhans.

Na never mind yanks know it all anyway. :lol:

I'm not sure where he got the 8200 pound stuff from. My PS only weighs in at 7700 pounds. Not sure about the Dodge but I suspect it is lighter than the PS.