Diesel Trucks

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DiamondSCattleCo":vc97qst9 said:
norriscathy":vc97qst9 said:
Does this mean the diesel has more pulling power from a dead stop but with more horsepower the gas as the advantage at higher speeds?

Kinda, sorta, but not really :) HP is a function of torque. In effect its the amount of work you can theoretically do over time, as long as the load you are asking it to carry doesn't exceed the amount of torque available. So, your V10, with its higher HP should be able to accelerate faster, when its running at higher RPM, as long as there is enough available torque to allow acceleration. In other words, when loads are lighter, or the truck is empty.

Rod



Torque can be measured at the crankshaft of an engine. You can hook a scale to the output shaft of an engine and physically measure how hard its pulling...this is torque.

Horsepower is a computed number. It is a measure of the ammount of work done over a period of time...more hp = more work done.

Horsepower = torque * rpm/5252

From the formula you can see that the higher an engine rev's the more horsepower it will make...provided the torque numbers stay the same.

The biggest difference between diesel engines and gas engines is the compression ratios used in the motors.

Gas engines typically run a 8:1 - 10:1 compression ratio.

Diesels run 17:1 - 21:1.

Diesel engines "squish" the fuel mixture more so when it lights off you get a bigger bang. More power per pound of fuel being burnt...which is why diesels give better mpg when compared to similar powered gas motors.

The tradeoff is that in order to handle these higher compression ratios the deisel engine parts need to be physically more robust...they are heavier and bigger.
Because of this extra weight, throughout basically every engine component, the diesel cannot run at the high rpm's a gas motor can.

Gas motors can run at very high rpm's, and make gobs of horsepower, but this leads to poor fuel economy and lots of engine wear.

This is the biggest reason why Diesel engines last so much longer. The parts are built heavier from the start and they run at a much lower rpm.

Gas motors are perfectly capable of towing anything a diesel can given similar sized motors....its just the gas motor will get less fuel economy and wear out faster because it needs to run at a higher rpm level.

Occasional towing a gas motor is fine and it also allows you to accelerate a lot faster when you arent loaded. Nicer for daily driving IMO.

For heavy towing and just plain durability...you can't beat a well made diesel.
 
flaboy+":1eh5m771 said:
I would just have a problem driving a truck with an Isusu motor. The max's take a lot of grief over this.
when i was a GM tech i worked on a ton of GM diesels and believe me they can't build one. not a small one anyway so they had to get someone else too. the duramax is a great eng. but the fuel inj system still sucks. they should have done like ford & dodge and used real diesel's me myself i like the cummins.
 
This has run on for days and days. This issue must be settled they only way it can be. Since Dun lives in the Ozarks; I would suggest that he select the steepest and most wicked 5 mile run he can find. We will all meet at Duns with our trucks. (He will of course feed us all!) I'll bring my 32' Big Tex trailer, we'll load it with hay and and finally settled who has the badest truck around! (I get to keep the hay since everyone will be using my trailer!)
 
Saltydawg":2l11rjqm said:
Gas motors are perfectly capable of towing anything a diesel can given similar sized motors....

No. Gas motors are perfectly capable of towing anything, at the same TORQUE level. Its purely a numbers game.

Your explanation of HP was a decent one, however HP is an expression of how quickly work is being done for a given torque level. HP, in no, way, shape or form can be used to determine how much work can actually be done, only how quickly it can be done. Torque governs how much work can be done. In other words, at a given load, provided there is sufficient torque to do the work, the higher HP engine can do the work at a higher speed. But if you want to accelerate how quickly you are doing the work, you require more torque.

Thats why a 340 HP diesel can pull heavier loads than a 340 HP gas engine. Its doing it at a lower RPM, therefore at higher torque. Now, if you could get a gas engine to make 340HP at the exact same RPM as the diesel engine, ie: same torque at the same RPM, then the gas engine would do the same amount of work as the diesel, and do it the same speed.

This cannot ever happen without an increase in the gas engine size, because, as was mentioned earlier in the thread, gasoline simply does not have as many BTUs of energy stored in it. This is not a function of compression, as was alluded to. Diesel engines require high compression to ignite the fuel. This leads to further efficiency, as there is less unburnt diesel at the end of a combustion cycle (more heat, more burnt fuel).

Rod
 
DiamondSCattleCo":3mnx9gm4 said:
Saltydawg":3mnx9gm4 said:
Gas motors are perfectly capable of towing anything a diesel can given similar sized motors....

No. Gas motors are perfectly capable of towing anything, at the same TORQUE level. Its purely a numbers game.

Your explanation of HP was a decent one, however HP is an expression of how quickly work is being done for a given torque level. HP, in no, way, shape or form can be used to determine how much work can actually be done, only how quickly it can be done. Torque governs how much work can be done. In other words, at a given load, provided there is sufficient torque to do the work, the higher HP engine can do the work at a higher speed. But if you want to accelerate how quickly you are doing the work, you require more torque.

Thats why a 340 HP diesel can pull heavier loads than a 340 HP gas engine. Its doing it at a lower RPM, therefore at higher torque. Now, if you could get a gas engine to make 340HP at the exact same RPM as the diesel engine, ie: same torque at the same RPM, then the gas engine would do the same amount of work as the diesel, and do it the same speed.

This cannot ever happen without an increase in the gas engine size, because, as was mentioned earlier in the thread, gasoline simply does not have as many BTUs of energy stored in it. This is not a function of compression, as was alluded to. Diesel engines require high compression to ignite the fuel. This leads to further efficiency, as there is less unburnt diesel at the end of a combustion cycle (more heat, more burnt fuel).

Rod

If your rear wheels were connected directly to your engine crankshaft at a 1:1 ratio you would be correct.

However, using the gearing in a transmission and your rear end you effectively multiply torque available at the rear wheels.

Picture a common diesel engine running down the road in top gear...lets say a 1:1 ratio (for ease of math). This truck also comes equipped with a 3.0:1 rear end.
Now your 7.3L diesel engine makes 500 lb/ft of torque at its peak.
Running that through the tranny and rearend will multiply the torque at the rear axle by 3.0:1...for a grand total of 1500lb/ft of torque at rear axle.

Ok now lets assume a 7.3L gas job. This motor could easily produce 400lb/ft of peak torque.
Running it through the same drivetrain as the diesel you end up with 1200lb/ft of torque at the rear axle.

Now lets change the ratios a bit.

Lets bump the rearend gearing up in the gas job to 3.73:1. Plugging this new ratio into the torque figures we jump to 1492lb/ft of torque at the rear axle for the gas job.
Only 8 lb ft less than the diesel.

What this does however is cause the motor to run at a higher rpm to maintain the same speed down the road. Good thing its a gas motor that is happy turning higher rpm's.
You could do the same for a diesel motor and multiply the torque at the rear axle, unfortunately diesel engines don't like high rpm's.

You can run much higher gearing with a gas motor than you can with a diesel which allows the gas job to play on a level field with the diesel.

The drawback is the gas engine is less fuel efficient and has greater internal parts wear because of the higher rpm's.


A gas job rated 450hp and 350lb/ft WILL out pull a diesel rated at 350hp and 450lb/ft if you use the proper gearing to take advantage of the gas engines higher rpm range.

The gas job will also visit the graveyard sooner if you do this regularly :).


edit: Picture 2 farmers out in a field looking at a big rock they need moved.
One farmer weighs 300lbs and the other weighs 150lbs.

Both of them need a lever to move the rock.

The big guy only needs a level 4 ft long to move it cause he weighs a lot more.
The little guy needs a lever 6ft long to move it cause he weighs a lot less.

Lucky for the little guy he is much quicker on his feet and moves his level twice as fast as the big guy and gets his rock moved first.

Leverage/gearing can give you all the torque you need. You just need to be fast enough (high rpm's) to make up for the longer disntance you have to travel.
 
Those Mazda engines probably weren't released in the US. They went into Mazdas over in Europe. Anyway we went to the Dodge Dealership the other day and Dodge has put the 5.9 Cummins in the Ram 1/2 tons.
 
Saltydawg":3tlwkq3y said:
A gas job rated 450hp and 350lb/ft WILL out pull a diesel rated at 350hp and 450lb/ft if you use the proper gearing to take advantage of the gas engines higher rpm range.

I'm too lazy to go back 6 pages:)) ), however in an earlier post I did mention the caveat 'when all other things are equal, only the motor changes' or words to that effect. With gearing, most things are possible, although you will eventually run out of options due to transmission size.

But lets take it another direction. You've now given the gas engine 3.73s to allow it to move the load. So stick the diesel into that truck now. Since you've shortened the gearing, the diesel will now be able to pull even more as it has an even greater torque at the driven wheels. So you so keep shortening the gearing, as the gas engine has enough RPMs that you can still do highway speeds. Thats fine, but the diesel, at any given axle ratio, has a torque surplus, and gives you option of tossing an OD (or 4 or 8) into the transmission. Effectively, you are increasing the RPMs of the diesel engine without actually doing so.

Saltydawg":3tlwkq3y said:
edit: Picture 2 farmers out in a field looking at a big rock they need moved.
One farmer weighs 300lbs and the other weighs 150lbs.

Both of them need a lever to move the rock.

The big guy only needs a lever 4 ft long to move it cause he weighs a lot more.
The little guy needs a lever 6ft long to move it cause he weighs a lot less.

Lucky for the little guy he is much quicker on his feet and moves his level twice as fast as the big guy and gets his rock moved first.

Leverage/gearing can give you all the torque you need. You just need to be fast enough (high rpm's) to make up for the longer disntance you have to travel.

This is a good analogy that only illustrates my point.

Make the rock bigger. The big fella, with his shorter lever, can probably still move the bigger rock. The little fella, no matter how quick he is, still can't move it. He just ain't got the torque. Or maybe the big fella can't move it with his shorter lever. So give the big fella the shorter guys lever. He can now move the rock, whereas the little fella probably needs an even longer lever again. But the fact is, he'll always need that longer lever (shorter gears) to move the same load that the big fella can move.

Rod
 
Milk Shorthorn Guy":bolym9r0 said:
Dodge has put the 5.9 Cummins in the Ram 1/2 tons.

Did you actually see one, or is this another salesman dreaming? The torque of the current 5.9 Cummins would twist the frame of the 1500 into a pretzel, unless it was detuned. Ditto for the 9" rear diff. And the weight of the engine would require the front running gear of the 2500 as the 1500 springs/ball joints simply wouldn't handle the weight. Heck, one of the weak points of a 2500/3500 Cummins RAM is the ball joints give up the ghost every 100,000 klicks and the trackbar dies every 125,000 klicks (ok, the 03 and up trucks appear to have taken care of the trackbar issue).

Rod
 
[/quote]



Your explanation of HP was a decent one, however HP is an expression of how quickly work is being done for a given torque level. HP, in no, way, shape or form can be used to determine how much work can actually be done, only how quickly it can be done. Torque governs how much work can be done.

Rod[/quote]


Diesel engine...500lb/ft @ 2500 rpm peak torque.

Gas Engine.....300lb/ft @ 5500rpm peak torque.

Plugging these into the formula we get 238hp for the diesel and 285hp for the gas.

Ok so we have loaded truck we need to move down the road at 60 mph.

Lets say it takes 1000lb/ft of torque at the rear wheels to move this truck down the road at 60mph and we are using 31 inch diameter tires.
We need to spin those tires at roughly 650 rpm to maintain this speed.

Since neither of our motors make a raw 1000lb/ft of torque we are gonna have to use gearing to bump up the torque at the rear wheels.

Since the diesel makes 500 lb/ft of torque we are gonna need to use 2:1 gearing to get the required torque. Easy enough.
However we also need to keep in mind the speed of the vehicle....we need to keep those rear wheels spinning at 650 rpm.
Because of the 2:1 gearing our engine is still running at 2500 rpm's but our tires are now spinning at 1250 rpm....TWICE as fast as we need to go.
So we either lower the engine rpms or change the gearing.
Since we are concerned with total ammount of work these engines can do we will leave the engine run at 2500 rpm for peak torque and change the gearing.
Since we need 650 rpm's we need to cut the rear wheel rpms in half again.....so we bump up our gearin3:1.
What this also does is further multiply the torque.

We are now running 60 mph down the road, our engine is turning 2500 rpm and we have........1500lb/fttorque available at the rear wheels.
Not too shabby.



Now for the "little" gas motor.

It makes peak torque at 300lb/ft of torque at 5500 rpm's.

Again we need to increase gearing to get the minimum 1000lb/ft to move our loaded truck.
We need 3.33 gearing to reach our 1000b/ft.
However this still leaves our rear wheels spinning at 1666 rpm's....way to fast for our 60 mph goal.
Time to increase gearing again since we want to leave the engines at peak power output.
We need to add another 2.56 gearing to reduce the wheel speed to 60 mph....so now we are at a total of 5.89 gearing which increases are torque at the rearwheels to......1767lb/ft of torque.

So the "little" gas motor, thanks to its higher rpm and ability to better utilize gearing, has 267lb/ft MORE torque available at the rea wheels while moving the same load down the road.


The reason people use diesels however is because no motor lives long when it's run at 5500 rpm like our little gas job. They also get crappy gas mileage when run this way.
 
So now, lets take the diesel and stuff it into the truck with the truck with the 5.89 gearing. Following your reasoning, what we have at the rear wheels is now 2945 lbft at the rear wheels, however we're only managing 424 RPM on the rear wheels. So now we increase tire size by 1.53 x the original size. This effectively reduces our torque output to 1925 lbft, which is still 158 lbft more torque than you had with the gas engine.

You're changing too many variables in your examples to accurately reflect the capabilities. More torque at lower RPMs gives you more options to either a) move bigger loads at the same speed, or b) accelerate the same size load faster. It has to, thats the purest definition of torque: How much work can we do? HP is only an arbitrary calculation of how quickly we are doing work for a given torque and engine RPM.

Taking this away from theory and into reality. While we were busy building big torque trucks for pulling, some wise guy realized that it might be neat to race them. You take a 550 HP (at 2700 RPM, 1070 lbft or torque) Cummins RAM in an 8200 lb truck. This will give you an 11 second quarter mile. You stick a 550 HP (at 5000 RPM, 525 lbft) gas engine in that EXACT same truck, your quarter mile is suddenly going to be 13 seconds.

Rod
 
DiamondSCattleCo":vay8x3d5 said:
So now, lets take the diesel and stuff it into the truck with the truck with the 5.89 gearing. Following your reasoning, what we have at the rear wheels is now 2945 lbft at the rear wheels, however we're only managing 424 RPM on the rear wheels. So now we increase tire size by 1.53 x the original size. This effectively reduces our torque output to 1925 lbft, which is still 158 lbft more torque than you had with the gas engine.

You're changing too many variables in your examples to accurately reflect the capabilities. More torque at lower RPMs gives you more options to either a) move bigger loads at the same speed, or b) accelerate the same size load faster. It has to, thats the purest definition of torque: How much work can we do? HP is only an arbitrary calculation of how quickly we are doing work for a given torque and engine RPM.

Rod

Actually I didnt bother to make sure all the math is correct in my above example(it's not)....because its a messageboard and I was only attempting to show the relationship.
If you go through and do the math properly the small engine will actually have closer to a 400 lb/ft advantage.
The big engine will actually be closer to 2000lb/ft at the rear wheels and the smaller engine will be closer to 2400lb/ft.

Do the math and you'll see nothing changes with the outcome.

Also, by giving the deisel truck the higher gear ratios, and then giving it bigger tires, you are bringing it right back to the original gear ratio.
You added ratio in the tranny/rear end and then removed an equal ammount by enlarging the tires to maintain the same road speed.
Your torque didn't multiply because your bigger tires equally offset the gearing changes.


I'll refer you here...its the best I could find right now without scanning engineering books lol.
Http://www.vettenet.org/torquehp.html


Oh, you show me the guy who can make an 8200lb vehicle run 11 second quartermiles using a 550hp motor and I'll guarantee him a job on a raceteam :).
 
The numbers weren't jiving last night, but I was too beat to track down the error on the gear ratios. As you say, when I increased tire size on the diesel, it should have put the final gear ratio back to the original one, which it didn't, so the original ratio that you used was wrong, or my end result was wrong. I'll redo the numbers tonight when I have more time.

As far as the race team offer, I guess you'd best come up with alot of race teams. Head to http://www.dieseltruckresource.com or http://www.turbodieselregister.com and check out results of almost any race/dyno show. You'll see numerous mid 11 second/low 12 second trucks, all of whom will dyno between 500 and 600 HP. I am intimately familiar with 3 of the trucks that make it to some of the shows, as I built the engines. Also check out the diesel hot rod association. There are a few 10 second street trucks that will only dyno in the 700 HP range.

Rod
 
Hehe I have no doubt 550 hp and 1000lb/ft of torque is enough to push a vehicle into the 11 second range....the only thing I question is whether or not its a 8200lb vehicle :).

Horsepower has been around a long time and its a pretty accurate reflection of what a motor is capable of. A 500 hp diesel and a 500 hp gas engine can do the same ammount of work....they just need different gearing to put their power to use.

Just for background info I have a master's in mechanical engineering, 20 years in the Navy as a gas/diesel/turbine engineman, and several years spent designing/building custom fuel/intake systems for one of the few hot rod shops for large Diesels (specializing in cats but we'd take in the lost cummins or detroit if the price was right hehe).

Now I'm a wannabe full time farmer(still learning) who just can't kick the habit of toying with engines :D .
 
Crowderfarms":jl5l9x6m said:
norriscathy":jl5l9x6m said:
We where 35 to 40 mph pulling a 23,000 # load UP an Arkansas mountain and passing diesels along the way with much smaller loads! You must be talking about a Chevy or Ram gas burner. We have the REAL thing; a FORD V10
Just as an example, and I'm not bashing your truck, dont get me wrong, but the Trucks with V-10's have the worst resale value immaginable, at least the one's on Ebay Motors do.I'll keep my Cummins. I pull a 25 ft. Gooseneck loaded with rolls, usually 15 of em' straight up this Mountain here, like a locomotive.I may have a few days where it starts a little slow when it's exceptionally cold, but I really do like my Diesel.

That's why I asked the question! It was really hard to even find a V10. We had to go almost 300 miles to Tulsa to even locate a V10! Understand resale value is low; just makes no sense. To me and what I've read from Salty Dawg; for normal use diesels are an expensive phsyc game. 100,000 per year bull haulers, yes, no question a diesel is better; for the rest of us no one has convienced me that a 325 HP diesel is better or stronger than a 362 HP gas.
 
I think Norriscathy has a good understanding of what I been trying to say.

I'm not knocking either gas or diesel engines.

If someone were to ask me what type of truck they should buy I would ask them what they want to do with it.

If they plan on running thousands of miles every year with pretty heavy loads behind them I would recomend a diesel.
If they routinely haul heavy loads up steep mountainous grades I would also recomend they buy a diesel.

However if they only haul a couple hay wagons a year or make a few trips heavily loaded to the market then i would say "save yourself some money and get a nice gas job".
You're not gonna kill a gas motor cause you load it occasionally and they make plenty of power.
Its not as fuel efficient or durable as a diesel but you gotta run a LOT of miles to recoup the thousands more you paid for that diesel.
 
Saltydawg":29fqb58b said:
I think Norriscathy has a good understanding of what I been trying to say.

I'm not knocking either gas or diesel engines.

If someone were to ask me what type of truck they should buy I would ask them what they want to do with it.

If they plan on running thousands of miles every year with pretty heavy loads behind them I would recomend a diesel.
If they routinely haul heavy loads up steep mountainous grades I would also recomend they buy a diesel.

However if they only haul a couple hay wagons a year or make a few trips heavily loaded to the market then i would say "save yourself some money and get a nice gas job".
You're not gonna kill a gas motor cause you load it occasionally and they make plenty of power.
Its not as fuel efficient or durable as a diesel but you gotta run a LOT of miles to recoup the thousands more you paid for that diesel.

Thank you Salty Dawg! I might also mention that you are now paying 20% more for diesel. Those extra couple of miles per gallon come at a precious cost.
 
Saltydawg":11c9k7g5 said:
Hehe I have no doubt 550 hp and 1000lb/ft of torque is enough to push a vehicle into the 11 second range....the only thing I question is whether or not its a 8200lb vehicle :).

Dodge 3500 4x4 Quad Cab. 8200 lbs is a little on the light side. Check out those links before you doubt what I say. In the Dodge world alone, there are a couple dozen well known 550HP+ 11 second trucks. Flaboy can likely chime in here with 6.0L Powerstrokes (I'm only familiar with the 12 second PS I built).

Saltydawg":11c9k7g5 said:
Just for background info I have a master's in mechanical engineering, 20 years in the Navy as a gas/diesel/turbine engineman, and several years spent designing/building custom fuel/intake systems for one of the few hot rod shops for large Diesels (specializing in cats but we'd take in the lost cummins or detroit if the price was right hehe).

I'm a good cowboy gone bad. No masters degree, just a couple bachelors degrees in unrelated topics. However, the cowboy gene which had infested this family for hundreds of years skipped by my father, and one uncle. So while I was learning about cattle from grandparents and the one uncle, I was busy skipping school to go racing snowmobiles, bikes, cars, trucks, and anything else with an engine that I could learn how to start.

After a few years, I started building my own engines/vehicles, and spent 15 years building until I got out of it a year or so ago. The last 5 years were spent selling diesel performance parts (which I hated), building diesel race engines (which I loved) and, oddly enough, designing air intake systems, fuel systems, and injectors for light diesel trucks. My focus was the Cummins, however the occasional DMax and Powerstroke strayed into my paws.

I don't have a raft of textbooks to look things up in, however I can draw upon thousands of quarter miles runs, thousands of dyno runs, and plenty of failed (and, thankfully, successful) automotive powertrain designs.

I personally feel that gas engines have absolutely no place in the pickup truck world, including 1500 series trucks. As you say, gas engines can do the same work as a diesel, provided the gearing is there. Unfortunately, the real world rears its head when we start talking about gearing. Take, for example, your hypothetical situation from a couple messages back. Your gearing would actually be 7.68. The ring gear on that diff would be a monster, in order to maintain enough toughness to handle the torque of heavy pulling. So you build it, wrap enough iron around it to enclose it, and then lose a bunch of your offroad capabilities because your diff is now 3 inches lower to the ground than it was before.

And who only wants to go 60 mph? You'd also need at least 2 OD gears in the transmission to make the vehicle driveable during rush hour in the city. And since most high HP gas engines have a sharp rise and drop in the torque curve (not all I know), you need a close ratio transmission, of at least 5 gears, to attempt to accelerate a large load at the same rate of speed as a high torque diesel. So we need to stuff a 7 speed trans into the truck. Now we have additional parasitic drag from the weight of the gearbox and all those gears we're spinning.

And the list goes on and on. A high torque diesel, with a proper torque curve (I feel the Cummins is a proper torque curve for an engine, rapid peak, and flat right to redline), is easy to build a truck around that can do everything well including accelerate and tow. I know there are dozens of other factors that influence acceleration empty or loaded, however the more torque you have available, at lower RPMs, the less trouble you have to accelerate.

norriscathy":11c9k7g5 said:
for the rest of us no one has convienced me that a 325 HP diesel is better or stronger than a 362 HP gas.

I think our little hypothetical situation may have confused you a bit, so lets get back to the real world for a bit:

2005 Ford V10 - 32 inch tires, direct drive, 4.10 rear axle ratio. At 60 mph, you're going to be revving somewhere around that 2600 RPM mark. A snoop through some of my old dyno sheets shows you're generating about 400lbft of torque. With the 4.10 rear axle ratio, you're putting about 1640 lbft of torque out on the axles.

2005 Dodge Cummins 610 - 32 inch tires, direct drive, 4.10 axle ratio. At 60 mph, I'll be revving right around that 2600 RPM mark as well. No need to snoop through dyno sheets, I know I'm putting out 590 lbft at 2600 RPM. Thats 2419 lbft of torque coming out of the tubes.

Empty or loaded, all other forces against acceleration including engine mass, aerodynamics, tire tread, etc etc etc, be darned, that Cummins is going to leave you breathing diesel smoke and will continue to do so until it runs out of RPMs at 3500 (at 3500 RPM, the Cummins is still kicking out more torque than the V10).

Egads, my fingers are tired :lol:

Rod
 
But Rod! Let's talk real world here! We are not talking about 11 second dragsters or tractor pull machines. Pick up trucks are the subject. I am certain someone can design a diesel engine with 10,000 ft lbs of torque. My question all along is why pay for it when my 1640 ft lb V10 is more than adequate?
 
norriscathy":1z6013g9 said:
But Rod! Let's talk real world here!

I was just talking real world with the V10 vs Cummins numbers I laid down for you. Those are stock numbers from showroom floor trucks.

My feelings are that, while the initial outlay of cash for the diesel is higher, in the long run you are not paying more for the diesel, but less. On trade in, the diesel will be worth more than the gas engine, sometimes by a LONG way. Somewhere back in this thread, I quoted some resale numbers. These weren't theoretical numbers. I've been all over the US. I've never seen an area where a gas engine, whether it be V8 or V10, will outsell a diesel engine.

Not planning on trading or selling anytime soon? Your overall investment is still less, as that diesel engine, properly maintained, will outlast the gas engine. I know hotshotters with over 1 million miles on their Cummins trucks and haven't rebuilt the engine yet. Sure, there are some very high mileage gas engines kicking around, but there are wayyyyyy fewer of them. As a general rule of thumb, you can expect twice the life expectancy from a diesel. And the diesel is less expensive to rebuild than the new breed gas engines.

You're right, with the added cost of diesel these days, the improved mileage of the diesel doesn't do much, although in my area, diesel isn't that much higher in price (couple cents a litre), so I'm still saving money.

My feelings are that you get better value for your dollar with the diesel: Better acceleration, better resale, better utility, better for the enviroment.

norriscathy":1z6013g9 said:
My question all along is why pay for it when my 1640 ft lb V10 is more than adequate?

Perhaps you may have asked that further back in the thread, but just a couple messages ago you stated that you were unconvinced that the higher torque diesel was better or stronger than the higher horsepower gas engine.

Better may be in the eye of the beholder, but the numbers prove stronger.

Rod
 

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