Dectomax or Cydectin?

[Lucky_P]

katpau,
I would say you were correct... none of the benzimidazoles, Valbazen included, have any significant 'persistence'; I believe that slaughter withdrawal for Valbazen is, like, 5 days... so I'd certainly anticipate that deworming with it a week prior to AI or bull turnout would pose no issues, so far as teratogenicity is concerned.

Ojp6 - I have used Noromectin in the past, but studies showing that many of the 'generic' ivermectin products have efficacies far below that of the pioneer (original name-brand) product, have dissuaded me from using anything other than the 'real McCoy', anymore. If you'll give us a link to the study/PowerPoint you found, I'm sure several of us would be interested in looking at it and possibly commenting.

 

[Ojp6]

katpau,
I would say you were correct... none of the benzimidazoles, Valbazen included, have any significant 'persistence'; I believe that slaughter withdrawal for Valbazen is, like, 5 days... so I'd certainly anticipate that deworming with it a week prior to AI or bull turnout would pose no issues, so far as teratogenicity is concerned.

Ojp6 - I have used Noromectin in the past, but studies showing that many of the 'generic' ivermectin products have efficacies far below that of the pioneer (original name-brand) product, have dissuaded me from using anything other than the 'real McCoy', anymore. If you'll give us a link to the study/PowerPoint you found, I'm sure several of us would be interested in looking at it and possibly commenting.

Sorry, this was the link.http://events.animalhealthinternati...ok/untitled folder/AHI training July 2013.pdf

 

[Anonymous]

[/quote]I have heard the 45 days prior to breeding repeated several times, but the label just says "Do not administer to female cattle during first 45 days of pregnancy" I don't see anything about giving it prior to breeding cattle. Perhaps someone will correct me if I am wrong, but I think if you gave it a week or so prior to bull turn-out, you would be OK. The label only cautions against using the product at any time when cows could be less than 45 days into pregnancy.[/quote]


Your right that's what the label says. I found it some where the day this question was posted. I always have used injectable or pour on.

 

[atticmole]

Had a discussion with Dr. Tom Yazwinski at UofArk today, regarding a research project I have to evaluate - two different dewormer treatments on stocker calves.
His recommended treatment for stocker calves from any source, at any time (we didn't discuss bred heifers, cows, pre-weanlings) is to give both a benzimidazole(fenbendazole, albendazole, oxfendazole) drench and a macrocyclic lactone(ivermectin, doramectin, moxidectin, eprinomectin) at the same time. Resistance to the MLs is really strong in Cooperia and Haemonchus - but the benzimidazole drench will get them; the benzimidazoles won't get arrested/encysted Ostertagia - but the MLs will.

If you're gonna do a pour-on, do it RIGHT! Apply the correct dose in the proper manner, on clean dry cattle, with no rain in the recommended time frame. Majority of the drug gets to the target to kill worms by ingestion, as the cows lick/groom themselves and one another... more gets there that way than by being absorbed through the skin.
So... if you're only treating a few here and there, and not treating them all... none of them get the appropriate dose.

Using wormers without testing is the ABSOLUTELY QUICKEST way to be totally resistant. TEsting needs to be done on each animal in question followed by treating ONLY the individual animal that NEED a particular wormer based on/chosen from test results AND the use history/records after testing/treatment/retesting to verify it worked on your farm. Every farm is different.
Hopefully you only used one wormer so you still have an option or two... if you are "rotating" wormers or worse yet using several at the same day you then ended up with total resistance to several wormers.... Let me tell ya what happens then... you sit back and watch your animals DIE with NOTHING you/the vets can do to save them. BEEN THERE.. lost pens full of healthy animals ready to ship that were given a perfect vet health inspection on Monday afternoon but were dead at 6 am Wed being posted by our vet! It took over a decade to straighten out the mess we created by using wormers the lazy way. Now we learned the science of worming and rarely ever use wormers on our livestock (as many as 8,000 head in the past). The goal is NOT to kill the worms but rather to maintain a LOW population of healthy (Nonresistant) worms that can be controlled in the event of a perfect storm (like we had above) when rarely needed.
We treated a total of 14animals last month with poor natural resistance and fecals indicated worms that required cydectin. BTW we immediately shipped (yes after withholding time) them to auction to remove them from our farm. (now they are someone else's problem).
We had another couple this month that after testing needed prohibit. Perfect example of why each animal needs to be tested. What did work last month would not work this month. Just "worming" (lazy farming) leads to more losses since its likely that 2/3rds of the time the wrong wormer was used (leading to needles resistance for hte failed wormer) the aminmals continue their downward spiral.
Just found this (
https://www.dtnpf.com/agriculture/w...2019/05/20/thinking-changed-dewormer-programs )
last night while researching a new probelm here, dead animals from liver flukes which we have never had before.... we are breaking all of the rules and must treat all of the animals at once with ivmec+ which will lead to resistance in the worms again but stop the instant deaths we are having from liver failure! cant win!

 

[M.Magis]

Using wormers without testing is the ABSOLUTELY QUICKEST way to be totally resistant. TEsting needs to be done on each animal in question followed by treating ONLY the individual animal that NEED a particular wormer based on/chosen from test results AND the use history/records after testing/treatment/retesting to verify it worked on your farm. Every farm is different.
Hopefully you only used one wormer so you still have an option or two... if you are "rotating" wormers or worse yet using several at the same day you then ended up with total resistance to several wormers.... Let me tell ya what happens then... you sit back and watch your animals DIE with NOTHING you/the vets can do to save them. BEEN THERE.. lost pens full of healthy animals ready to ship that were given a perfect vet health inspection on Monday afternoon but were dead at 6 am Wed being posted by our vet! It took over a decade to straighten out the mess we created by using wormers the lazy way. Now we learned the science of worming and rarely ever use wormers on our livestock (as many as 8,000 head in the past). The goal is NOT to kill the worms but rather to maintain a LOW population of healthy (Nonresistant) worms that can be controlled in the event of a perfect storm (like we had above) when rarely needed.
We treated a total of 14animals last month with poor natural resistance and fecals indicated worms that required cydectin. BTW we immediately shipped (yes after withholding time) them to auction to remove them from our farm. (now they are someone else's problem).
We had another couple this month that after testing needed prohibit. Perfect example of why each animal needs to be tested. What did work last month would not work this month. Just "worming" (lazy farming) leads to more losses since its likely that 2/3rds of the time the wrong wormer was used (leading to needles resistance for hte failed wormer) the aminmals continue their downward spiral.
Just found this (
https://www.dtnpf.com/agriculture/w...2019/05/20/thinking-changed-dewormer-programs )
last night while researching a new probelm here, dead animals from liver flukes which we have never had before.... we are breaking all of the rules and must treat all of the animals at once with ivmec+ which will lead to resistance in the worms again but stop the instant deaths we are having from liver failure! cant win!

You bumped an 8 year old thread. And Lucky P is a vet, I'm sure has a decent grasp of what you're lecturing him on.

 

[farmerjan]

I am not perfect nor do I have any degrees from college studies in ag... but I have done some classes...
I also am of the mindset..... "TEST the animal for what worms they have... and treat for that" . We do not routinely worm anything here...except bought feeders and they get ivomec... They are kept separate for over a week from any other animals on the farm... in a basically dirt lot and fed hay free choice.
They will pass worms out there and they are less likely to survive and reinfect because there is no grass for them to "climb" for the animals to eat.

Sheep and goat breeders have gotten in alot of trouble from using wormers constantly and switching them around... It is well accepted that any good sheep breeder has a microscope and does their own fecals to check... and only worms those that need it... The FAMACHA chart is not as reliable as doing fecals. To this end only Prohibit seems to work and if used too much,..... it also is useless.....

To me it is the same idea of antibiotics... only use them when needed ... NOT as a preventative...

The animals that have a more natural resistance to worms seem to pass it down to their off spring... we have several families of cows now that "stay fat on thin air".... so to speak. Doesn't matter what they eat, or what stage of lactation they are in... Easy Keepers they are also called... and not having to spend money on constant worming and such is a definite PLUS......They breed back, stay in good flesh, raise a calf and go about their business... the ones that don't... go down the road.

 

[farmerjan]

Cy dectin's formulation is supposed to be LESS disruptive to earthworms and dung beetles...

 

[Brute 23]

I think a person needs to consider what you are de-worming, also. If it's an established cow you are going to own for 15 yrs you may want use as needed. If it's a terminal steer getting weaned that you are going to hold you may want to apply as a preventative.

 

[kenny thomas]

I agree. Every calf i own gets Cydectin at least once. If its on the cow it will get it again at weaning. Every bought calf gets a shot of Cydectin when unloaded and again in 60 days or less. I cant feed worms and i feel calves dont have enough immunity.

 

[wbvs58]

Using wormers without testing is the ABSOLUTELY QUICKEST way to be totally resistant. TEsting needs to be done on each animal in question followed by treating ONLY the individual animal that NEED a particular wormer based on/chosen from test results AND the use history/records after testing/treatment/retesting to verify it worked on your farm. Every farm is different.
Hopefully you only used one wormer so you still have an option or two... if you are "rotating" wormers or worse yet using several at the same day you then ended up with total resistance to several wormers.... Let me tell ya what happens then... you sit back and watch your animals DIE with NOTHING you/the vets can do to save them. BEEN THERE.. lost pens full of healthy animals ready to ship that were given a perfect vet health inspection on Monday afternoon but were dead at 6 am Wed being posted by our vet! It took over a decade to straighten out the mess we created by using wormers the lazy way. Now we learned the science of worming and rarely ever use wormers on our livestock (as many as 8,000 head in the past). The goal is NOT to kill the worms but rather to maintain a LOW population of healthy (Nonresistant) worms that can be controlled in the event of a perfect storm (like we had above) when rarely needed.
We treated a total of 14animals last month with poor natural resistance and fecals indicated worms that required cydectin. BTW we immediately shipped (yes after withholding time) them to auction to remove them from our farm. (now they are someone else's problem).
We had another couple this month that after testing needed prohibit. Perfect example of why each animal needs to be tested. What did work last month would not work this month. Just "worming" (lazy farming) leads to more losses since its likely that 2/3rds of the time the wrong wormer was used (leading to needles resistance for hte failed wormer) the aminmals continue their downward spiral.
Just found this (
https://www.dtnpf.com/agriculture/w...2019/05/20/thinking-changed-dewormer-programs )
last night while researching a new probelm here, dead animals from liver flukes which we have never had before.... we are breaking all of the rules and must treat all of the animals at once with ivmec+ which will lead to resistance in the worms again but stop the instant deaths we are having from liver failure! cant win!

I think you will find the drug "Clorsulon" in Ivomec plus is only effective against mature liver fluke. Sudden deaths are usually caused by the immature migrating stages of the fluke which won't be helped by this. Triclabendazole is the drug of choice for acute problems with fluke, it is given orally.

Ken

 

[Lucky_P]

Valblazen is 45 days before breeding and the active ingredient is Albendazole. Kinda pricey though. Cydectin active ingredient is Milbemycin. Ivomec, Epernix and Dectomax are Avermectins. I would do a pour on in spring and the drench in the fall. The drench tends to expel more worms and with the colder temps the worms have less chance of survival. Do the drench in a chute though it takes forever otherwise.

No. Cydectin is moxidectin.
Ivomec, Dectomax, Eprinex, and Cydectin are all macrocyclic lactones(avermectins).
If the parasites on your premises are resistant to Ivomec, they will also be resistant to all other members of that class of dewormers.

 

[Ebenezer]

Mature cows (over 3 YO) should not need worming due to natural immunity. If they do, cull them. First calf heifers seem to respond to respond well to wormer if they are losing weight quicker than peers. That is stress, nutritional demands and hormones to make that happen. I have done FECs on calves for a number of years at weaning after not worming at any time. One calf "needed" worming from the FECs a few years ago. The companies that make, promote and sell deworming products really have done a GREAT job on promotion. Tie into membership of the national group to give you a jug, promote meetings and meals, give hats... BUT do these thing really need to be used. In some cases - yes. In many cases, no. But I do not make money or give you a cap with my name on it to tell you "no". Go figure.

Flukes are different.

Sheep here (SE USA) in our flock are "no wormer" sheep. Same deal as cows: need worming as a lamb or FECs are high - gone. I want them to work for me and not me work for them.

 

[Silver]

We give everything an avermectin once a year. I'm not so concerned about internal parasites as all the creepy crawlies on the outside. I hear the argument that cattle build an immunity to that too but I'm not interested in that discussion. I've seen enough tick infested moose to know how that works.

 

[Dave]

We pour all the cows every fall. Worms aren't much of an issue. The very dry climate and well scattered cows are the reason for that. But if you don't pour the cattle the lice will have them near naked by spring.

 

[Silver]

We do it in the fall also, at preg test time. Also try to keep oilers and scratchers out on feed grounds with permethrin in them.

 

[Lucky]

We do it in the fall also, at preg test time. Also try to keep oilers and scratchers out on feed grounds with permethrin in them.

Silver, what brand of oilers do you use and do you think they're effective. Looking at getting a couple oilers but they are a little pricey for something they say is a 50/50 shot in our area.

 

[RNW]

small cattleman in N/MS, 40 mamma cows. usually just worm when weaning or if cow get poor. been using ivomectin, cydectin, for years. thought i was rotating wormers every few years(pour on). evidently they are all pretty much ivomectin. is there another brand of 'pour on' wormers i should try. injectable is not going to work for me. thanks for any info

 

[Silver]

Silver, what brand of oilers do you use and do you think they're effective. Looking at getting a couple oilers but they are a little pricey for something they say is a 50/50 shot in our area.

I like the green Bauman. It applies on their back when they scratch themselves. If memory serves they were about $350 CAD a few years back. The big oiler/mineral station built by Hutterites was pretty pricey. Not as bad as a Lewis but I think it was $2,500 or so. Nice thing about the Hutterite rig is they can medicate all their itchy spots. But honestly I don't know how effective either one is, but they do go through the medication and I don't see lousy cattle so I feel like I'm doing my part.

 

[Lucky]

I like the green Bauman. It applies on their back when they scratch themselves. If memory serves they were about $350 CAD a few years back. The big oiler/mineral station built by Hutterites was pretty pricey. Not as bad as a Lewis but I think it was $2,500 or so. Nice thing about the Hutterite rig is they can medicate all their itchy spots. But honestly I don't know how effective either one is, but they do go through the medication and I don't see lousy cattle so I feel like I'm doing my part.
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We are looking at the Prarie Phoenix which is very similar to the one in bottom pic. They run around $2,500 and we'll need a couple. I was told the yearling cattle will take right to them but the cows may not. I really need to order a couple and see.