Daddy Issues

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

That sucks for your operation.
I had my whole cow herd DNA tested last year down to wean heifers. Only one animal did not test correct for sire - a female we purchased. All was straightened out. I was just pleased that my years of breeding turned out accurate.

 

[elkwc]

Didn't you see where I mentioned to Ron that your situation was most likely a "genuine" mistake, not intentional? If you were dealing with someone that purposely tried to sell you a bill of goods, then you have problems. I didn't take that as the sitution when I read your post.

I am making reference to why you got "SLAMMED".

I assure you that this operation was a pure mistake...just as I came to defend SAV on their mistake in that other thread.

Back on topic, if we could try not to derail this and make it all about you... that would be great. :deadhorse:

When will the AAA start insisting that parentage be confirmed and as members, should we push it?

I said that many months ago. Everything in AAA should be tested before a registration is issued. Every animal should be HD50K tested or Angus GS AND have the genetic bundle to start eliminating all carriers.

Now this would upset a LOT of people, but think about the clarity it would bring to the breed.

Why HD50K?

 

[NEFarmwife]

That sucks for your operation.
I had my whole cow herd DNA tested last year down to wean heifers. Only one animal did not test correct for sire - a female we purchased. All was straightened out. I was just pleased that my years of breeding turned out accurate.

We are getting there. Everything we've purchased the last 2 years has genomics. I did buy a heifer this year without but I'll be verifying her when we bring her home from pasture. I have two bulls without genomics from same operation I got this guy from. We DNA/parent verify all our calves.

 

[CattleMan1920]

I am making reference to why you got "SLAMMED".

I assure you that this operation was a pure mistake...just as I came to defend SAV on their mistake in that other thread.

Back on topic, if we could try not to derail this and make it all about you... that would be great. :deadhorse:

When will the AAA start insisting that parentage be confirmed and as members, should we push it?

I said that many months ago. Everything in AAA should be tested before a registration is issued. Every animal should be HD50K tested or Angus GS AND have the genetic bundle to start eliminating all carriers.

Now this would upset a LOT of people, but think about the clarity it would bring to the breed.

Why HD50K?

Either that or Angus GS. Both are high density tests.

 

[elkwc]

I said that many months ago. Everything in AAA should be tested before a registration is issued. Every animal should be HD50K tested or Angus GS AND have the genetic bundle to start eliminating all carriers.

Now this would upset a LOT of people, but think about the clarity it would bring to the breed.

Why HD50K?

Either that or Angus GS. Both are high density tests.

Why not offer a test like Ag Boost that actually has information beneficial to the commercial breeder? I'm like other commercial breeders we find little value in any of the Angus tests.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Why HD50K?

Either that or Angus GS. Both are high density tests.

Why not offer a test like Ag Boost that actually has information beneficial to the commercial breeder? I'm like other commercial breeders we find little value in any of the Angus tests.

I was speaking about Angus specific tests. I'm not familiar with the one you speak of. I do know that the Angus Association has options for commercial applications.

 

[CreekAngus]

I do not agree with genetic bundke testing unless it's going to stud. If one of ours comes back at potential, we test for that specific defect and clear it.

Epic?

Epic didn't need the genetic bundle, he flat failed the parentage. If you don't think money rules the AAA, I have two case studies to show you are in error. 1- Precision 1680. 2- Epic.

 

[hornedfrogbbq]

Didn't you see where I mentioned to Ron that your situation was most likely a "genuine" mistake, not intentional? If you were dealing with someone that purposely tried to sell you a bill of goods, then you have problems. I didn't take that as the sitution when I read your post.

I am making reference to why you got "SLAMMED".

I assure you that this operation was a pure mistake...just as I came to defend SAV on their mistake in that other thread.

Back on topic, if we could try not to derail this and make it all about you... that would be great. :deadhorse:

When will the AAA start insisting that parentage be confirmed and as members, should we push it?

I said that many months ago. Everything in AAA should be tested before a registration is issued. Every animal should be HD50K tested or Angus GS AND have the genetic bundle to start eliminating all carriers.

Now this would upset a LOT of people, but think about the clarity it would bring to the breed.

Amen but SAV and Herbster would hit the fan about it.

 

[NEFarmwife]

Following up on this thread. The sample we used was a sample that was already on file to clear a potential defect. That sample was the one tested. I got to thinking and just shot over an email about an hour ago... as to whether a new sample should be submitted because maybe the sample that was original, is the mistake.

The seller called the Angus Assoc and they stated the sample was slightly deteriorated and was advised to resubmit sample. Crossing fingers! I pulled blood on a few calves last night so I am going to send in the bulls new sample Monday. Totally forgot to take them with me this morning. We REALLY want him to be whom his papers said he was.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Following up on this thread. The sample we used was a sample that was already on file to clear a potential defect. That sample was the one tested. I got to thinking and just shot over an email about an hour ago... as to whether a new sample should be submitted because maybe the sample that was original, is the mistake.

The seller called the Angus Assoc and they stated the sample was slightly deteriorated and was advised to resubmit sample. Crossing fingers! I pulled blood on a few calves last night so I am going to send in the bulls new sample Monday. Totally forgot to take them with me this morning. We REALLY want him to be whom his papers said he was.

I'm rooting for you. Good luck.

 

[Richnm]

A guy tried selling me cattle last summer. Told me he uses a Simmental clean up bull and still registers everything as Angus. He is out of Utah. He does not do any dna test, everything should be tested.

 

[True Grit Farms]

If someone sold me something that wasn't I'd call my Lawyer and tell him to make sure I was properly compensated. There's absolutely no reason to sell a registered bull of any breed without having him DNA tested first. I don't trust the semen companies to run my business either, accidents happen but that's why you have insurance and Lawyers.

 

[CattleMan1920]

A guy tried selling me cattle last summer. Told me he uses a Simmental clean up bull and still registers everything as Angus. He is out of Utah. He does not do any dna test, everything should be tested.

I believe you, seriously I do.

 

[CattleMan1920]

If someone sold me something that wasn't I'd call my Lawyer and tell him to make sure I was properly compensated. There's absolutely no reason to sell a registered bull of any breed without having him DNA tested first. I don't trust the semen companies to run my business either, accidents happen but that's why you have insurance and Lawyers.

You and I, Grit, think just alike in terms of lawyering up, and doing it on a big scale.

Just read this post I just put up and you will get a good idea of where things might end up with this situation.

https://cattletoday.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=120274

 

[cbcr]

It is costly to do DNA testing, but it is something that really needs to take place for the sake of some breeds. If ALL bulls were required to be DNA tested and parentage verified (especially to their sire), there would probably be fewer bulls for sale!

In processing registrations, when we have to ask questions and how little some breeders know or how terrible their records are, it makes you wonder. Many commercial operations keep much better records that would put some registered operations to shame!

We have requested a hand-full of times that an animal be DNA tested. One animals we had quite a time trying to figure out the sire, but we finally did.

One thing that I thought was good is that we had one breeder that submitted genomic samples to France for some Montbeliarde. He had one animal that did not parentage verify to her sire, but they were able to determine who it was.

If the markers on an animal are available, why can't out genomic testing companies do the same thing? Are some of the genomic labs in Europe ahead of us?

 

[True Grit Farms]

It is costly to do DNA testing, but it is something that really needs to take place for the sake of some breeds. If ALL bulls were required to be DNA tested and parentage verified (especially to their sire), there would probably be fewer bulls for sale!

In processing registrations, when we have to ask questions and how little some breeders know or how terrible their records are, it makes you wonder. Many commercial operations keep much better records that would put some registered operations to shame!

We have requested a hand-full of times that an animal be DNA tested. One animals we had quite a time trying to figure out the sire, but we finally did.

One thing that I thought was good is that we had one breeder that submitted genomic samples to France for some Montbeliarde. He had one animal that did not parentage verify to her sire, but they were able to determine who it was.

If the markers on an animal are available, why can't out genomic testing companies do the same thing? Are some of the genomic labs in Europe ahead of us?

Personally I don't see where a $100 is costly. I have no problem selling someone a commercial Angus bull, but if I sell a Hoover Dam son to someone, he needs to be a Hoover Dam son. It's really that simple, the buck stops here. Costly is selling someone, something that isn't what you say it is. A man has his word and no one can take that from him, he might sell it or give it away but that just makes him less of a man. IMO

 

[Angus Rocks]

I don't have a problem with parentage testing but when line breeding gets done in a tight breeding situation how will can they tell?

I ain't going to pay Angus for their numbers to only get them manipulated to make the new hot sires look great and the older sires that still grow just as good look like crap with the numbers. I would way rather pay for Agboost that compares across all breeds rather then just one. Also believe they are way more accurate

 

[CreekAngus]

I don't have a problem with parentage testing but when line breeding gets done in a tight breeding situation how will can they tell?

I ain't going to pay Angus for their numbers to only get them manipulated to make the new hot sires look great and the older sires that still grow just as good look like crap with the numbers. I would way rather pay for Agboost that compares across all breeds rather then just one. Also believe they are way more accurate

You just nailed it. Currently the dna test can only tell you who it ain't related to, sort of. When we send in samples we have to tell the parentage and when they run the test they look for markers that reflect the supposed parentage. If it's a miss and the Daddy isn't the sire, they can't tell you through the dna who the sire really is. You have to give them your next best option who they then look for markers, again. Hypothetically you could use a Payweight son and get it registered to Payweight, because there are enough markers.

 

[NEFarmwife]

I don't have a problem with parentage testing but when line breeding gets done in a tight breeding situation how will can they tell?

I ain't going to pay Angus for their numbers to only get them manipulated to make the new hot sires look great and the older sires that still grow just as good look like crap with the numbers. I would way rather pay for Agboost that compares across all breeds rather then just one. Also believe they are way more accurate

You just nailed it. Currently the dna test can only tell you who it ain't related to, sort of. When we send in samples we have to tell the parentage and when they run the test they look for markers that reflect the supposed parentage. If it's a miss and the Daddy isn't the sire, they can't tell you through the dna who the sire really is. You have to give them your next best option who they then look for markers, again. Hypothetically you could use a Payweight son and get it registered to Payweight, because there are enough markers.

I'm going to, based off of the convo I had with the operation and Angus Association... disagree.

To my understanding, when called on about possible problem with the sample used is "it was two markers off of being a match"... which told me that it could still be a son of same sire. But what they were conveying is, the sample on file was deteriorated and could have potentially been the reason it was off.

New sample was mailed Saturday.

I want to be clear since Branded is making my small molehill into a mountain... this bull was purchased in 2015 to cover commercial cows. It was purchased because it was a heifer bull by genetics. It was purchased because of the reputation of said breeder.

Having said that, once we started needing coverage on our purebreds... we chose him to clean them up because we loved his calves for the last few years. We did not make a bad decision there. We're happy with those results.

The only thing I'm frustrated over, is the genomics came back with a 46 milk. Way higher than I like.

Parentage doesn't mean a whole lot on commercials as long as you aren't getting 100lbs + on heifers that can't calve them. We got lucky.

Parentage means everything now that we run PB. All but two bulls and our calves for this year have been genomic/parent verified. We do not purchase anything without that now. Those other bulls will never see a PB.

 

[CattleMan1920]

I don't have a problem with parentage testing but when line breeding gets done in a tight breeding situation how will can they tell?

I ain't going to pay Angus for their numbers to only get them manipulated to make the new hot sires look great and the older sires that still grow just as good look like crap with the numbers. I would way rather pay for Agboost that compares across all breeds rather then just one. Also believe they are way more accurate

You just nailed it. Currently the dna test can only tell you who it ain't related to, sort of. When we send in samples we have to tell the parentage and when they run the test they look for markers that reflect the supposed parentage. If it's a miss and the Daddy isn't the sire, they can't tell you through the dna who the sire really is. You have to give them your next best option who they then look for markers, again. Hypothetically you could use a Payweight son and get it registered to Payweight, because there are enough markers.

I'm going to, based off of the convo I had with the operation and Angus Association... disagree.

To my understanding, when called on about possible problem with the sample used is "it was two markers off of being a match"... which told me that it could still be a son of same sire. But what they were conveying is, the sample on file was deteriorated and could have potentially been the reason it was off.

New sample was mailed Saturday.

I want to be clear since Branded is making my small molehill into a mountain... this bull was purchased in 2015 to cover commercial cows. It was purchased because it was a heifer bull by genetics. It was purchased because of the reputation of said breeder.

Having said that, once we started needing coverage on our purebreds... we chose him to clean them up because we loved his calves for the last few years. We did not make a bad decision there. We're happy with those results.

The only thing I'm frustrated over, is the genomics came back with a 46 milk. Way higher than I like.

Parentage doesn't mean a whole lot on commercials as long as you aren't getting 100lbs + on heifers that can't calve them. We got lucky.

Parentage means everything now that we run PB. All but two bulls and our calves for this year have been genomic/parent verified. We do not purchase anything without that now. Those other bulls will never see a PB.

"Parentage doesn't mean a whole lot on commercials"

It could if that parent is a carrier. Then you just screwed your client. BIG TIME! What if your client is retaining females, building up his females?

For all your sage wisdom about the cattle biz, you sure sound like "amateur hour"

I've tested plenty of cattle and only had parentage come back wrong once, and that was on a calf out of a cow I purchased, and that I did not breed, AND that breeder was sure of the bull, but it ended up being his other bull. All was straightend out ASAP.

I would be far more concerned about birth defects than 100+ pound calves. My heifers can handle 100 pounders, but birth defects can't be fixed.

The devil is in the details, what might seem small and insignificant to you might be a big problem for others.