Cycling - Not Settling?

[branxchar&charx]

While pictures are probably not necessary for this post but they're always fun to look at.lol
Here's the issue: ive noticed some cows cycling multiple times, others not. So i wonder if its the bull (my guess) or the cows. He's going to be rechecked on Monday. When he was checked at turnout Apr 28, vet passed him but 75% good swimmers. Ive read here some people dont go below 90%. Heres the vet invoice


This was observed 20 days apart


This was 26 days apart, which i find even more perplexing

Pasture is about 1/3 brush w plum bushes, rest is mainly lovegrass. Currently hav 19 cows here.
At the time, they are on nutrebeef all purpose mineral w altasoid(doesnt work lol) and regular salt blocks.
I switched to stockade kandymag mineral and the garlic salt blocks this past week.
Thoughts before i head to the vet?

 

[wbvs58]

He looks like a young bull. He might have to hone his skills a bit. I use yearling Angus bulls and while there aim might be a bit off the first couple of cows, they soon get the idea. 70% should be fine to get the job done.

Ken

 

[moses388]

I agree with wbvs58. I would add one bull should be able to cover 19 cows. The report showed a scrotal circumference of 41cm and that's okay. He looks like a young bull and his fertility should increase until he reaches his prime.

 

[branxchar&charx]

He looks like a young bull. He might have to hone his skills a bit. I use yearling Angus bulls and while there aim might be a bit off the first couple of cows, they soon get the idea. 70% should be fine to get the job done.

Ken

Bull is about 3-4 yrs old. Wen my brother in law bought him late last year, they said he was 3. Also he weighed 1670 at the vet.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Sounds like lepto in my part of the world.

 

[farmerjan]

I tend to agree with the possibility of Lepto... and that is often more in the cows than the bull. We do all the cows with lepto at preg checks... it usually is good for a year if you do not have a problem situation... but many dairies are doing lepto at least twice a year. Prevalent in all mammals... deer, foxes, coyotes, dogs, skunks are most often thought of as carrier culprits. Settling and then aborting the embryo is common in lepto infected herds. Also I understand that it is common in wild hogs although I have heard that the types are not as commonly cross species.

 

[J Hoy]

It also sounds like the cow may just have low progesterone.

 

[Caustic Burno]

I tend to agree with the possibility of Lepto... and that is often more in the cows than the bull. We do all the cows with lepto at preg checks... it usually is good for a year if you do not have a problem situation... but many dairies are doing lepto at least twice a year. Prevalent in all mammals... deer, foxes, coyotes, dogs, skunks are most often thought of as carrier culprits. Settling and then aborting the embryo is common in lepto infected herds. Also I understand that it is common in wild hogs although I have heard that the types are not as commonly cross species.

Feral hogs are horrible for carrying it.
It's started effecting our deer herd.

 

[Lucky_P]

If the bull passes his BSE, then it's time to look at infectious diseases like Trichomoniasis and Leptospirosis(due to L. hardjo-bovis)... both of these can cause early embryonic death and return to heat.

Trichinosis is worthy of consideration if this is a 'used' bull... though, typically, what we see are cows that you thought were bred, then you see them back in heat 2-3 months after the bull served them - usually not coming back in every 18-21 days. Diagnosis will require PCR testing &/or culture of preputial washings/scrapings from the bull at the diagnostic laboratory.

Leptospira hardjo-bovis causes early embryonic death and repeated returns to heat on a fairly regular 18-21 day basis for 3-4 cycles or more before they finally 'stick'. L.hardjo-bovis is a cattle-adapted strain... dogs/coyotes, feral hogs, deer, other wildlife are not the culprits... carrier cattle in the herd are where you point the finger for this one.
Control... vaccinate appropriately with an 'HB' Lepto vaccine. In a tight spot, with small numbers of cattle, you could mass-treat with injectible oxytet... or... just vaccinate and then cull cows that didn't breed within the desired breeding period, then continue vaccinating against L.h-b as part of your normal herd health vaccination program - and vaccinate any retained heifers or purchased cows prior to breeding. Forever.
Mid- to late-term abortions due to Leptospirosis are generally due to infection with species other than Lepto. hardjo-bovis - and dogs/wildlife may be implicated as potential source of infection.
Serology for Lepto is not generally helpful with L. hardjo-bovis... whether infected or vaccinated - the cows don't mount much of an antibody reponse...they may have no or very low antibody titer to the L.hardjo antigen used in the serologic test. The 'HB' vaccines primarily induce cell-mediated immunity, not humoral(antibody) response. Definitive diagnosis would require PCR testing of urine from suspect cows... Lepto. hardjo-bovis colonizes the kidneys, so carrier animals are constantly shedding it in their urine. Vet can administer Lasix, collect urine sample, and submit to the diagnostic lab.

 

[Nesikep]

If you find nothing infectious, I'd look at mineral status as well.. The cows that aren't breeding back, are they by chance the ones with the biggest calves? I had one cow that was a really heavy producer, on the years where she calved late, she'd breed back right away, when she calved early, she'd cycle and wouldn't stick, and it was also about 25-30 days between heats.. I did a mineral panel on her and found out she was REALLY low in phosphorus, copper and selenium

 

[branxchar&charx]

I definitely appreciated everyone responses and gave me some good questions to ask the vet. Several issues:
Bull was not having it being tested. Vet unable to get a sample and he tried awhile.
Vet asked how thin the cows were we purchased them this winter. They were thin, some moreso than others but overall, a few weeks of hay and feed they got to looking way better. He asked if they were salebarn cows. We bought from a private ranch but a couple cows have several different brands, so vet immediately hollered at his helpers "run the bull back through and get a trich test." Results: negative. They aged him at 7 years.
Vet said most likely condition set the cows back but tbh, i have my reservations. He asked if we had mineral, said that should be good. He said he wasnt going to call the bull bad (inconclusive as no sample) but if we could, to put another bull in just in case.
Preg checked 6 cows calved mar-apr (stil pretty early for a more accurate preg check).
1 vet was going to call open but said it felt like she was 35-42 day range. Sent off blood test, positive, in calf.
1 cow calved in January. He called her 2+
The other 4, all open.
So looks like I'm going to be bull shopping.haha

 

[TCRanch]

Looks like I have one that aborted. Both bulls tagged her 6/6 and I noticed this morning they're practically glued to her again. She wasn't standing at the time, will have to check her later.

Have fun bull shopping. May be slim pickins' for a virgin bull this time of year, but could probably get a good deal on a older bull getting pulled from spring breeding.

 

[JW IN VA]

Add blood work for neosporia if nothing else shows up. Been there.

 

[branxchar&charx]

Looks like I have one that aborted. Both bulls tagged her 6/6 and I noticed this morning they're practically glued to her again. She wasn't standing at the time, will have to check her later.

Have fun bull shopping. May be slim pickins' for a virgin bull this time of year, but could probably get a good deal on a older bull getting pulled from spring breeding.

Ugh, i kno that feeling. And Agreed on slim pickens. Wat im afraid of. Already lost 2 months on the cows who are open for next year.
Think i will ask around and definitely add neospora for some additional bloodwork.

 

[TCRanch]

Ugh, i kno that feeling. And Agreed on slim pickens. Wat im afraid of. Already lost 2 months on the cows who are open for next year.
Think i will ask around and definitely add neospora for some additional bloodwork.

Keep in mind, there's not a vaccine to help prevent neorpora & it's transmitted primarily by coyotes, wild dogs, foxes. But at least you will know and maybe up your eradication game on the perps.

Good luck on the bull hunt!