Culling and replacing

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Looking at the pictures, you have to be impressed with the first - your "worse". Must be she keeps great BC because of lack of milking. Strange that combo (Sim/Ang) has lack of milk? The last one shows NO sign of muscling, but has fat pockets.
Yes the first one is a nice looking cow, Her half sister, by the same Simmental bull is taller and doesn't carry quite as much condition, but weaned off probably the best, and biggest calf we've had by that particular Angus bull, It sold in a group of 5 calves the others of which were cows calves.
 
I sold this one and two more just like her that basically skipped a breeding season. They had their first calf on time, skipped the second season and were going to have their second calves when their herdmates are having their third. Thankfully prices were up when I sold.

After this bull I have now breeds after spring calving I am looking to get a good simmental bull. But I will have heifers that need bred and not sure that is a good idea…

Not trying to hijack but thought I would share my bad cows so ky hills doesn't feel so bad. 😆


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I sold this one and two more just like her that basically skipped a breeding season. They had their first calf on time, skipped the second season and were going to have their second calves when their herdmates are having their third. Thankfully prices were up when I sold.

After this bull I have now breeds after spring calving I am looking to get a good simmental bull. But I will have heifers that need bred and not sure that is a good idea…

Not trying to hijack but thought I would share my bad cows so ky hills doesn't feel so bad. 😆


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Right or wrong I'm of the mindset Angus bulls for heifers, especially if they are Angus type heifers, and growth bulls for cows.
 
Everybody thought I was crazy for bringing in a Limousin because of their disposition, but that bull was the calmest bull I've ever had.

Every breed has their bad actors and Limousin had one line that had a patriarchal bull that was very calm... and sired calm animals... but for some reason the second generation removed was nuts. Just like any other breed, you can find great breeders that prioritize docility along with all the other positive traits. I don't need to say this because you already know it.

I've never had a Lim that didn't milk, but they aren't known for having pretty udders.

The big positive in Lims is the meat they put on their calves... and that translates to $ when the feedlot buyers are bidding.
 
I need to ask the question-what age (range at least) are you weaning? Or are you weaning all on one date, so late calvers will have smaller calves, early will have bigger calves, but "average" is X age and weight?
 
I need to ask the question-what age (range at least) are you weaning? Or are you weaning all on one date, so late calvers will have smaller calves, early will have bigger calves, but "average" is X age and weight?
We wean at 6-7 months usually. Anything on the young end will be taken into consideration, I don't expect a 5 month old calf to weigh the same as a 7 month. With the differences in the calves we do have some overlap.
 
Every breed has their bad actors and Limousin had one line that had a patriarchal bull that was very calm... and sired calm animals... but for some reason the second generation removed was nuts. Just like any other breed, you can find great breeders that prioritize docility along with all the other positive traits. I don't need to say this because you already know it.

I've never had a Lim that didn't milk, but they aren't known for having pretty udders.

The big positive in Lims is the meat they put on their calves... and that translates to $ when the feedlot buyers are bidding.
It was a stereotype that neither Limousins or Charolais milked well, I think in both breeds it was probably line specific. At least that's what I saw with Charolais.
In the late 80's early 90's, had an adjoining neighbor that had purebred Limousins. All red but one black cow. They were good cattle and looked like they had plenty of milk and decent udders.
I had several Charolais cows that we really had to watch calf scours as the cows milked so heavy. Some of those udders weren't great, either and could end up with a 2 or 3 quartered cow.
When we're meeting with a realtor in Oklahoma, looking at land, he mentioned that they had used Limousins but we're going away from that due to lack of milk in the replacements.
 
Calf weaning weights have a zillion variables. IMO the only true measurement is weaning weight divided by days of age. This will give you a true comparison from cow to cow.
One thing I have noticed is the weight changes from year to year depending on the forage quality. It will also give you a idea on the ideal time of year for your calving period.
You cannot really compare weaning weights for spring calving cows versus fall calvers unless you have some good cool season forage or you are feeding something other than hay. Even then you are not comparing apples to apples.

For me, idea calving time seems to be early December. Its rare that we have real cold weather in December. The calves born then are three or so months old when the spring flush comes on and wean off when the heat slows the grass down. The cows have it easy through the hot part of the year and generally have enough forage to maintain their condition.
 
Right or wrong I'm of the mindset Angus bulls for heifers, especially if they are Angus type heifers, and growth bulls for cows.

Yeah I might have to find some bred heifers after telling my my wife we were going to keep some of these next ones. 😳 We have used an angus bull the past 6 years and I'm ready to change things up.
 
A few thoughts if I were starting over.

Concentrate first on getting some good maternal cattle. Good mothers, good feet, good udders, enough milk to raise a good calf, easy keepers, no giants and no midgets, consistent looking in type, size, color, etc. Who is most important - your cows or your bull? I vote for the cows. Resist the urge to bring in cattle that satisfy some need for diversity (odd breeds, colors, size, horns, spots, etc). Consistency in the cows leads to consistency in the calves. A consistent set of calves (age, color, type, look, weight, etc) gives more marketing opportunities. I think crossbred cows have more longevity and fertility than purebreds. I think simangus, simmental and angus cows fit well in my area.

Bull and breed of bull - select bulls that fit with the cows to produce those consistent calves. If you run multiple bulls and will market the calves together, the bulls need to be similar in type, color, etc. Changing bull types/breeds every few years will probably decrease consistency in the calves. Charolais bulls have the color/dilution issue. Not as maternal as some other breeds. Also consider the availability of bulls. Here they are plenty of good angus bulls to select from. A good amount of simmental and simangus bulls. Not so many Charolais and other breeds to select from.

Now the real important stuff - take a critical look at the pastures and forage. Cattle convert grass to pounds of beef. Except for some variation in efficiency, increasing growth and weaning weight will require more calories. The cattle need to fit the environment. It generally takes better/more nutrition to produce more pounds of calf/acre. Grass type, fertilizer, stocking rate, forage quality, management practices are all important. Which is the priority - cow quality or pasture quality to produce more pounds of calves? I think both.

This may seem odd but write out your plan. That will make a person think through the issues and remember what the plan is. Changing direction on a plan is sometimes needed, but some people alter their plan too much and too soon. A plan that includes lots of supplemental feed is a bad plan for most people. A plan that results in low BCS is not a good plan either. Management of stocking rate is a factor in the plan.

Work on the balance between cost and quality of things purchased. Paying more does not itself guarantee better quality, but people sometimes have a tendency to go cheap on important purchases. I would tend to start out with higher quality (and probably higher cost) cows and bulls as opposed to lower quality/cost cows and bulls. Even if I started with fewer head. Of course, none of that issue is as simple to implement as it is to say. But the point is that "cheap" stuff can end up being the most expensive purchase. Buying a cheap cow because she will turn a profit vs. buying a better cow that will turn a bigger profit - one is better than the other.

Produce cattle that there is a market for in your area. Not based on just what you like to see in the pasture. A small producer can't do much about the local market except try to produce what it will best pay you for.

I have rambled on enough. Simmental, angus and simangus cows with angus and simmental bulls would be a good starting point and would produce some consistent growthy calves in this area.
 
Simmental & Charolais can improve most everyones' WW, but "generally" a Simmental replacement will make a better COW (milking ability, temperament, and marbling trait for her steers). Charolais may still put more #'s on the ground, I'm not sure.
I haven't asked, but that may be the intention of dude breeding his red Charolais to black Simm bull. As far as his steers, those will be some big black calves at weaning. If he plans on keeping the heifers, then like you said: They should get the marbling and milk from the Simm, and the growth rate from the Char. Back in the early 70's, when the cow-killer Simms and Chars first got here, people started crossing those 2 breeds. Had a lot less dead calves and cows that way. This was back when Simms were red & white. The resulting cross looked like pale yellow Simms. My younger brother and his friend showed these heifers every year in HS, and my y granddaddy would buy them from the boys after the state fair each year. He'd just turn them out with his Angus. They all had great dispositions, and that had a lot to do with them being shown, I guess. They had huge black baldy or grey baldy calves each year, and they had plenty of milk for them alright. Their calves at 4 months would be as big as the Angus calves at 6 mos.
 
We have been trying some Simmental bulls. The fist one bred only 4 cows before a breeding injury. Got two heifers from him both from Angus cows. Will be culling one. Pictured below is the other one by a registered Angus cow.
Our second Simmental bull was red white face, he went down with the same type breeding injury, but did get i believe 7 calves by him, only 2 of those are heifers. These calves are from about a month to 6 weeks old. Most of those calves are bigger boned and stouter than any we've had in a while, probably since our Limousin bull about 8 or 9 years ago. 978AF3E2-2B57-4A3B-903A-DF0A1AC409E3.jpeg4E78D5CF-4AFD-4C7D-9CB8-C8D2D9761B08.jpeg02AFAC29-4B9D-49B0-B769-92DC467C3B78.jpeg4939825F-36D8-49C5-A3DD-5E5F0C990582.jpegE7689E66-1929-4B16-B4EF-9569853D2019.jpeg3B768ED2-AAD9-4A77-BEAD-DB9D72ED89FE.jpeg42A82E44-75E8-4E53-8D89-5D6E228E532F.jpeg5B4B6035-9F1D-4566-AD9C-3657D416C144.jpeg79613ACA-13EB-44A0-ACC5-AC59B9914FE4.jpeg
 
A few thoughts if I were starting over.

Concentrate first on getting some good maternal cattle. Good mothers, good feet, good udders, enough milk to raise a good calf, easy keepers, no giants and no midgets, consistent looking in type, size, color, etc. Who is most important - your cows or your bull? I vote for the cows. Resist the urge to bring in cattle that satisfy some need for diversity (odd breeds, colors, size, horns, spots, etc). Consistency in the cows leads to consistency in the calves. A consistent set of calves (age, color, type, look, weight, etc) gives more marketing opportunities. I think crossbred cows have more longevity and fertility than purebreds. I think simangus, simmental and angus cows fit well in my area.

Bull and breed of bull - select bulls that fit with the cows to produce those consistent calves. If you run multiple bulls and will market the calves together, the bulls need to be similar in type, color, etc. Changing bull types/breeds every few years will probably decrease consistency in the calves. Charolais bulls have the color/dilution issue. Not as maternal as some other breeds. Also consider the availability of bulls. Here they are plenty of good angus bulls to select from. A good amount of simmental and simangus bulls. Not so many Charolais and other breeds to select from.

Now the real important stuff - take a critical look at the pastures and forage. Cattle convert grass to pounds of beef. Except for some variation in efficiency, increasing growth and weaning weight will require more calories. The cattle need to fit the environment. It generally takes better/more nutrition to produce more pounds of calf/acre. Grass type, fertilizer, stocking rate, forage quality, management practices are all important. Which is the priority - cow quality or pasture quality to produce more pounds of calves? I think both.

This may seem odd but write out your plan. That will make a person think through the issues and remember what the plan is. Changing direction on a plan is sometimes needed, but some people alter their plan too much and too soon. A plan that includes lots of supplemental feed is a bad plan for most people. A plan that results in low BCS is not a good plan either. Management of stocking rate is a factor in the plan.

Work on the balance between cost and quality of things purchased. Paying more does not itself guarantee better quality, but people sometimes have a tendency to go cheap on important purchases. I would tend to start out with higher quality (and probably higher cost) cows and bulls as opposed to lower quality/cost cows and bulls. Even if I started with fewer head. Of course, none of that issue is as simple to implement as it is to say. But the point is that "cheap" stuff can end up being the most expensive purchase. Buying a cheap cow because she will turn a profit vs. buying a better cow that will turn a bigger profit - one is better than the other.

Produce cattle that there is a market for in your area. Not based on just what you like to see in the pasture. A small producer can't do much about the local market except try to produce what it will best pay you for.

I have rambled on enough. Simmental, angus and simangus cows with angus and simmental bulls would be a good starting point and would produce some consistent growthy calves in this area.
Excellent post. I agree 100%.
 
We have been trying some Simmental bulls. The fist one bred only 4 cows before a breeding injury. Got two heifers from him both from Angus cows. Will be culling one. Pictured below is the other one by a registered Angus cow.
Our second Simmental bull was red white face, he went down with the same type breeding injury, but did get i believe 7 calves by him, only 2 of those are heifers. These calves are from about a month to 6 weeks old. Most of those calves are bigger boned and stouter than any we've had in a while, probably since our Limousin bull about 8 or 9 years ago. View attachment 51152View attachment 51155
@Ky hills, where did this little roan calf come from? Do you have a Shorthorn cow?
 
@Ky hills, where did this little roan calf come from? Do you have a Shorthorn cow?
several years ago, we bought some Hereford heifers, one was presumably 1/2 shorthorn, white faced with just a little bit of red roan showing on her back and around the legs if remember. Bred them to a registered Angus bull, the roan heifer had a basically solid black heifer with a little white on her belly, and a little white spot on top just in front of the tail head, and just a few white hairs like a hint of blue roan in her forehead, that you have to look hard to see. She's had black and BWF calves with no signs of roan, may have had a red neck calf once by a Hereford, until this year by the Simmental bull. We couldn't believe what we were seeing when first saw it, the shorthorn came back through.
 
The roan gene is dominant. Cow may not have "shown much" roan, but she carried the gene. Flip of a coin whether she passes it or not.
Fun fact - if a Shorthorn carries TWO roan genes, it will be WHITE. If you breed to a white Shorthorn bull, you are guaranteed to get a roan calf. (ask me - I know!!)😁
 
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