Crossbreeding with Brangus

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WarEagle73

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I've been thinking alot lately about where I want to go with my cowherd in the future, and this question keeps coming to mind. How much heterosis do you lose crossing Angus with Brangus? I know Brangus is a Brahman derived breed using Angus, but my thought was if you used Brangus bulls from herds that have been using only Brangus seedstock for several generations and not breeding up to Brangus, would there be a enough difference between Angus and Purebred Brangus lines to maintain significant heterosis?

The reason this keeps coming to mind is I think eventually like to do a 3 breed rotational cross using Angus and Hereford for 2 of the legs. I like these two breeds because of the large genetic base that I can select from and I know these breeds can produce stout steers as well as good replacement females from the same bull. Additionally, I would like the majority of calves to come out black and at some point in the rotation I would like to add Brahman influence. Beefmaster and Simbrah could also accomplish this, but finding those bulls seems to be more difficult than Brangus.
 
WarEagle73":16qjdu64 said:
I've been thinking alot lately about where I want to go with my cowherd in the future, and this question keeps coming to mind. How much heterosis do you lose crossing Angus with Brangus? I know Brangus is a Brahman derived breed using Angus, but my thought was if you used Brangus bulls from herds that have been using only Brangus seedstock for several generations and not breeding up to Brangus, would there be a enough difference between Angus and Purebred Brangus lines to maintain significant heterosis?

The reason this keeps coming to mind is I think eventually like to do a 3 breed rotational cross using Angus and Hereford for 2 of the legs. I like these two breeds because of the large genetic base that I can select from and I know these breeds can produce stout steers as well as good replacement females from the same bull. Additionally, I would like the majority of calves to come out black and at some point in the rotation I would like to add Brahman influence. Beefmaster and Simbrah could also accomplish this, but finding those bulls seems to be more difficult than Brangus.

You will not lose any heterosis, but only gain more heterosis. Why not use brangus cows, cross them with a horned hereford bull and then come back on them with a charolais or simbrah bull? Brangus has a fairly large genetic base. I think the IBBA is the third, or fourth largest breed association.
 
CopeMan":mqaezxnd said:
You will not lose any heterosis, but only gain more heterosis. Why not use brangus cows, cross them with a horned hereford bull and then come back on them with a charolais or simbrah bull? Brangus has a fairly large genetic base. I think the IBBA is the third, or fourth largest breed association.
In the system I have in mind there wouldn't be a true "terminal" cross. I would retain females from every cross and put them back into the rotation. Something like Angus->Brangus->Hereford->Angus->Brangus.... This way I would maintain a high level of heterosis at each cross.

Like I said above, I like Angus and Hereford because I have seen what they can do, producing excellent steers and good maternal replacement females from the same bull. And I may be completely wrong, but all of these breeds today seem to be able produce steers with the growth and carcass traits the industry desires.
 
What are you starting with... Angus cows? Sounds like you have 2 of your 3 picked out (Angus and Herf) and need the last to be a breed that is maternal & brahman influenced. The suspects would be Gert, Simbrah, Brangus, Beefmaster. However, you should get a bit more of a kick starting with your third being Gert or Simbrah (rather than Brangus or Beefmaster), since they would be a completely unrelated breed. Furthermore, you'd get more kick with the continental... so my vote for your 3rd is Simbrah. Of course there are black ones out there for you.
 
The only problem I see is when you say, "with the same bull." You are giving up considerable lbs by limiting your bull selection to bulls you would want to keep heifers out of. Use bulls that are specialized - either cow makers or strictly terminal. A middle of the road bull gives up too much at both ends of the spectrum.
 
This would be my pick for 3 way rotation in the southeast- 2 BR derived and 1 Continental...

1. Gert
2. Simm or Gelb
3. Brangus
 
@ xbar: theres nothing wrong with a rotation that doesn't involve a terminal cross. keep in mind, he is designing a continuous loop. I only threw in my rotation preference to share, not to imply his picks were wrong in any way.

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/an055
 
I like the gert x hereford = star five. This leaves you multiple options on 3 rotation.
 
If your initial goal is to create a 3 breed rotational heifer group why not save some time by using a breed like brangus or braford or just buying good quality baldie heifers then crossing those cows with a Simbrah, Gert, or Beefmaster bull? Or just use a Brahman bull, Angus/Hereford/Brahman is probably the most widely used 3 breed rotation in the south and in places like south Florida. Gerts, Beefmasters and Simbrahs are all great cattle, but just a little info, your not gonna have 100% black calf crop with these breeds. You could prolly find a homozygous black Simbrah bull tho.
 
not gonna gain much heterosis with the angus/ brangus cross... no big deal, gotta make some sacrifices to move in other directions, i have to..... you will make it up when you introduce the hereford.....but like your wanting to do........... gotta change the make up in the herd to do it....
 
insurman":2vvivbr5 said:
get with Tim Smith @Smith Genetics and see if he has any bulls from Charismatic...you will not be disappointed. http://www.smithgenetics.com/newsite/bulls/charismatic.html
if they aint no better than him, i would be disappointed....
 
brihop":24qmjn5o said:
@ xbar: theres nothing wrong with a rotation that doesn't involve a terminal cross. keep in mind, he is designing a continuous loop. I only threw in my rotation preference to share, not to imply his picks were wrong in any way.

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/an055

No, I agree. I just wanted to point out that there's no way he could be in expansion mode forever and at some point, I'd encouraging using a terminal bull as to guage just how good those mommas cows are.

--

Unless the Angus is a red carrier and/or you're using red brahman, the grey brahman x Black Angus x hereford rotation should result in all black calves..
 
Selling all bull calves and retaining select heifers as needed isn't necessarily an ongoing expansion mode. A 3 breed rotation, maintaining 3 separate herds each with its own pb bull of specific breed can have steady #s in each herd, with older cows being replaced as needed... it just usually takes a little while to get there. He'll have to breed those angus cows to another breed long enough to establish the first crossbred group of heifers for which to buy the next breed bull, then build again to get the 3rd (3-way cross) heifer group & put them with the original breed (angus) bull.
 
ya'll are making this more complicated then it actually is.... get a good brangus bull, i mean deep bodied with loads of capacity, and decent muscling, to make your females.and ones you dont have to tie feed bucket to,after their first calf..
 
Using a maternally oriented bull in a system where you only retain 'select heifers as needed' leaves a lot of money/lbs on the table.

*This is under the assumption that the retained heifers would be a very small % of your calf crop.
 
Gert or Beefmaster or Braford. All three for the Auburn area of Alabama would work well. As hot as it gets here. besides you do not get worn out at the sale barn, rep[lacment will sell well, not to mention retention of an angus base heifer should add carcass merit. Now talikng with a friend of mine most buyers are looking for good terminal calves, might consider a char if they are not hiefers, AI you best cows for replacements. Just a thought
 
ALACOWMAN":27hvmhf0 said:
ya'll are making this more complicated then it actually is.... get a good brangus bull, i mean deep bodied with loads of capacity, and decent muscling, to make your females.and ones you dont have to tie feed bucket to,after their first calf..

Agreed. Personally, I would buy a Brangus bull & build up an Brangus base cow herd as well. However, I just tried to logically answer his actual question & then back it up with some explanation.
 
[quote="-XBAR-"]Using a maternally oriented bull in a system where you only retain 'select heifers as needed' leaves a lot of money/lbs on the table. *This is under the assumption that the retained heifers would be a very small % of your calf crop.[/quote]
well thats something he wont have to worry about, being all over the place chasing rabbits........ little missy :cowboy:
 

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