Crossbred bulls

[ALACOWMAN]

I'm sorry Cowman. Does that pass for humour in your neck of the woods? Could never accuse you of being sharp, eh?
regards

may not be sharp but i try not to come into a conversation with my head up my A$$. oh yeah i forgot regards

 

[ALACOWMAN]

wasnt taken up for doc at all .he!! he dont need my help although his input is great for this site and {gulp} mtmnans as well. it just seems that every post of yours is in riddles

 

[cowspider]

I think I'll just Sell all my Cows and NOT buy a Bull!!!
Regards ;-) :cboy:

 

[ALACOWMAN]

Maybe we can leave it at that then Cowman. I think we've hijacked this thread enough. I'll try to be clearer in future.
One thing I'd like to say in response to Dun, is that, something that consistently comes across these boards, is the message not to chase EPD's across the whole spectrum, but rather to pick the numbers you need to improve your herd.
regards

I think it got hijacked several posts back. it went from CB bulls to CB cows, which is a whole nuther ball game

 

[andybob]

No pinnacle of perfection here, DOC.

Just some good crossbred cows, and calves.

I know not all Angus guys, but a pretty good bunch of them, ans the gernal trend is that way in my opinion.

mtnman

At last, someone that realizes that bigger isn;t alwasy better and will say it outloud.
What's better in one herd may be the opposite in another

dun

I agree, Dun, I have always maintained the way to go is to breed low maintainance,adapted breeds, and hybridise for size and other market requirements.

 

[Brandonm2]

I think it got hijacked several posts back. it went from CB bulls to CB cows, which is a whole nuther ball game

I agree. I think most people here understand that the crossbred commercial cow has higher fertility, greater longevity, and weans a heavier calf than a similarly cared for purebred cow. Now crossbreeding bulls gets things a little too complex for me.

Breed A times Breed B to produce AxB commercial cows bred to Breed C bulls is generally the optimum crossbreeding system.
Now AxB cows crossed to CxD bulls works for some people; but I personally would be hesitant to ever keep those AxB X CxD heifers. Do you breed those back to Breed A bulls, AxB bulls, or bring in Breed E??? or ExF? I find it a chore to stay ~knowledgable about Hereford EPDs, popular bulls, pedigrees, local breeders, etc. I try to follow Angus too and admittedly never know enough there. If I have to add Charolais, Santa Gertrudis, and Sim-Angus to the mix (just for examples) inevitably I would screw up (unless I have very good seedstock supplier partners) simply from lack of knowledge about a bull I was purchasing. Somebody with more knowledge or a big enough ranch to have a "management team" COULD pull something like that off. I would rather keep things simpler, myself.

 

[mtnman]

A X B then crossed to C isn't optimum, it's maximum. That system is for terminal production, not for making replacement heifers.

If you are concerned with trying to maximize heterosis, you'll screw it up, just like trying to maximize anything else.


We have settled on part of the cows to use an A x B, then A x C breeding system.

That way, every animals is 1/2 A. We use Gelbveih and Simmetnal for the B and C parts.

In other words, we cross SimmAngus with Balancers.

mtnman

 

[ALACOWMAN]

A X B then crossed to C isn't optimum, it's maximum. That system is for terminal production, not for making replacement heifers.

If you are concerned with trying to maximize heterosis, you'll screw it up, just like trying to maximize anything else.


We have settled on part of the cows to use an A x B, then A x C breeding system.

That way, every animals is 1/2 A. We use Gelbveih and Simmetnal for the B and C parts.

In other words, we cross SimmAngus with Balancers.

mtnman

now see this is information that would have been great to know a few post back. i have no choice at this point. but too agree 100 percent well since its you 99.9% leave that little fraction out just in case

 

[mtnman]

ALACOWMAN:

How does this information change anything for you?

What new information makes a difference?

mtnman

 

[ALACOWMAN]

ALACOWMAN:

How does this information change anything for you?

What new information makes a difference?

mtnman

well first off A-B X to C being maximum and the use of cross bred bulls that are bred for a certain goals thats fine . with the cross your talking about you still have a three in one package angus/ simm/ gelb. i was under the impression you had more breeds wadded up in leather but you are not making crap shoots when you have a proven product. im sure you will be more than happy too tell me im wrong but thats the way i see it. the funny part is you got two large frame breeds in your mix and can still maintain a #5 frame score cow of 1100 pd my hats off to you

 

[mtnman]

Well, you know what they say about assumptions.

Only one large framed breed, Angus.

Much easier anymore to find smaller Simmentals and Gelbvieh in my area than Angus.

Of course, the Angus guys don't think so, but the Simmental and Gelbvieh guys run Angus cows, so I can see them side by side.

Angus are bigger, no doubt about it.

mtnman

 

[farmerD44]

Well, you know what they say about assumptions.

Only one large framed breed, Angus.

Much easier anymore to find smaller Simmentals and Gelbvieh in my area than Angus.

Of course, the Angus guys don't think so, but the Simmental and Gelbvieh guys run Angus cows, so I can see them side by side.

Angus are bigger, no doubt about it.

mtnman

They must have some dang scrubby simmentals then if they are smaller than the angus. Unless they have been purposley breeding that way- to have the angus bigger and the simmys smaller.

 

[Brandonm2]

They must have some dang scrubby simmentals then if they are smaller than the angus. Unless they have been purposley breeding that way- to have the angus bigger and the simmys smaller.

It seems slap backwards to me too; but he is right. 7 frame Angus are very common as are frame 5 Simmentals. It would be very easy to find a supplier of large frame Anguses and moderate framed Simmentals; even though that would have been unthinkable 20 years ago.

 

[mtnman]

Not on purpose.

They bought the small end of the local Angus guys' calves.

The small Angus are bigger then the "normal" Simmental.

It is the norm now.

If youa re in an area where Simmentals are smaller than Angus, it is getting more and more scarce.

These Angus folks just don't know how dang big their cows are.

mtnman

 

[ALACOWMAN]

They must have some dang scrubby simmentals then if they are smaller than the angus. Unless they have been purposley breeding that way- to have the angus bigger and the simmys smaller.

It seems slap backwards to me too; but he is right. 7 frame Angus are very common as are frame 5 Simmentals. It would be very easy to find a supplier of large frame Anguses and moderate framed Simmentals; even though that would have been unthinkable 20 years ago.

it may be common in the north west but not around here brandon and you know it . unless the angus are kept in a controlled enviroment which aint likely

 

[Brandonm2]

They must have some dang scrubby simmentals then if they are smaller than the angus. Unless they have been purposley breeding that way- to have the angus bigger and the simmys smaller.

It seems slap backwards to me too; but he is right. 7 frame Angus are very common as are frame 5 Simmentals. It would be very easy to find a supplier of large frame Anguses and moderate framed Simmentals; even though that would have been unthinkable 20 years ago.

it may be common in the north west but not around here brandon and you know it . unless the angus are kept in a controlled enviroment which aint likely

I did not say it was common "in Alabama"(because it is not); but speaking for the United States as a whole there are definitely Angus herds out there where all the cows are F.S. 6 AND UP. Most grass raised Angus cattle in Alabama are frame 5 (or less) even with sires that are consistently producing 7 frames in Montana. That said we DO have large frame Anguses running around down here; though I suspect they get more than a little grain along the way. And we do have a lot of moderate framed Simmentals too. There were Simmental bulls sold in recent BCIA sales as short as frame scores 4.32 and 4.64. I worked the Auburn bull sale in a year when the top indexing Angus bull was a frame score EIGHT (I grant that he was a freak) The AVERAGE Simmental is going to be taller, larger framed, longer, and heavier than the AVERAGE Angus; but there is a LOT of overlap between the two breeds, especially now that many elite Simmental herds are jet black, moderate framed, Angus look alikes. Mntman did NOT say that "most" Simmentals are smaller than "most" Angus because that is BULL pucky. All he said was that his seedstock suppliers had bigger Anguses than Simmies. Having never been to his seedstock supplier, I think that is a very real possibility given that big Angus and moderate Simmies are both "common" in the United States.

I never said anything about his Gelbviehs; because I do not see enough Gelbvieh cattle to know what is the "norm" in that breed.

 

[mtnman]

I'll tell you my experience within our herds.

And the same thing was seen at MARC.

When Angus bulls hit 75-80 for YW EPD, they will produce daughters bigger than Average Simmentals.

Given that the average Angus YW EPD is over 70 now, I am confident in saying that the average Angus bull will produce daughters as big as the average Simmental bull.

In your area, maybe you have above average Simmentals.

In my area, the Angus average below 75 pounds of YW, but are still bigger than the Simmentals, so I guess we have smaller than average Simmentals.



mtnman

 

[mnmtranching]

Its true, that at least these Northern Black Angus have gotton larger with bigger frames. I know the same semen is available all over. It seems to me that ranchers up here and in ND and MT have saved females to add size to their cowherd. The idea bigger cows bigger calves more weaning weight. You see a lot of black and black baldy cows with white and smoky calves. On a normal year we expect to wean a 7 mo old calf at around 700 lbs without creep. But for our replacement females we use Herford or Angus bulls. Although I have about 20 Smoky cows that are raising as good calves as I've ever had. This has nothing to do with crossbred bulls, just talking cattle.

mnmt