crossbred bull question

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

That's better info. I did try to get a date on it, but was unsuccessful.
Interesting, their study did say that the majority of the panel could tell the diff from grass fed vs grain fed. To me, that's a no brainer, but interesting to see they studied it.

 

[Rmc]

That's better info. I did try to get a date on it, but was unsuccessful.
Interesting, their study did say that the majority of the panel could tell the diff from grass fed vs grain fed. To me, that's a no brainer, but interesting to see they studied it.

Study says it was started in 2011 and continued for six years
Here is another paper

https://www.cruachan.com.au/docs/Health%20and%20Tenderness%20of%20Highland%20Beef.pdf

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

I did not bother to read it. You got your point across.
I actually have a friend that just won in Denver with Highland heifers. I wouldn't have one on my farm, but I can admire good cattle of any breed.

 

[Ky hills]

So hybrid vigor is good but it isn't ? Which one ?
The entire idea of hybrid vigor is to cross two line bred animals that are as far as possible genetically from each other to produce maximum heterosis.
You say you would listen to a long time breeder with practical experience. Yet you sit and argue with me . So which one is it?

I'm not arguing with you, I was trying to build on some things that have been said by different contributors.
Breeding cattle is a complex venture. Some will argue cross breeding is essential to maximize production and profit. Others will say straight breeding of one purebred breed is the best way. There is merit to both lines of thinking despite the fact that heterosis is largely beneficial. The caveat is a lot of variables come into play from one region to another or even from farm to farm. For example for a lot of farms there is a belief that running straight bred Angus cattle is more practical, other will say no it works better to cross with another breed like Hereford, Still another option is to take the F1 Angus Hereford cross cows and cross them with a Charolais to get a 3 way cross and maximize hybrid vigor.
Hybrid vigor has positives but my point is that there are also negatives as well that need to be considered.
With hybrid vigor you should get more all around performance as a whole which in and off itself is a positive. The negative for some is part of the same whole ie, increased birth weights, increased mature size and milking ability of replacement females which again for some is a negative.
I mentioned fire and ice matings, both in a sense of purebred and cross breeding scenarios. If you breed small frame cows to a large frame bull of the same breed or vice versa the resulting calves will likely have a range of traits.
Crossbred cattle would be a range as well especially in the replacements.
Some crosses seem to nick well while others may work ok as females, but not necessarily something that you would want to use as a bull. I've always said Charolais crossed good with anything, and I believe that, however with the exception of a Charbray or an occasional Angus x Charolais bull it isn't a breed that is used in a crossbred bull capacity.

 

[anewcomer]

Some interesting points in this thread. Let's address the facts. There are two kinds of herds. Maternal and terminal. In a maternal herd, we breed for heifers that are better than their mothers. Better reproduction, calving ease, appropriate milk and longevity. The steers are acceptable in the commodity market. A terminal herd maximizes the growth of the calves, as all are sold into the commodity market. Maximum heterosis, and therefore growth, comes by using a terminal bull of a different breed on those crossbred cows. The cows provide the reproductive and longevity traits of the crossbred cows, while the terminal bull provides growth and/or carcass traits. This is the indisputable best we can do, without question, if maximizing commodity beef is our goal. The challenge is sourcing those crossbred cows.

 

[Silver]

I don't believe in "terminal" cattle. My aim is to have the best of both worlds in one herd.

 

[gusea305]

.

 

[puzzled in oregon]

I watched them run 2 really hot youngish highland bulls through the Eugene Livestock Auction. One ended up in the auctioneers booth. I do not know how he didn't kill the auctioneer and the secretary. That was an exciting auction. I imagine they were just never handled.

I think a person can find "goofies" in just about any species or breed

 

[gusea305]

I think a person can find "goofies" in just about any species or breed

Yup

 

[Rmc]

Some interesting points in this thread. Let's address the facts. There are two kinds of herds. Maternal and terminal. In a maternal herd, we breed for heifers that are better than their mothers. Better reproduction, calving ease, appropriate milk and longevity. The steers are acceptable in the commodity market. A terminal herd maximizes the growth of the calves, as all are sold into the commodity market. Maximum heterosis, and therefore growth, comes by using a terminal bull of a different breed on those crossbred cows. The cows provide the reproductive and longevity traits of the crossbred cows, while the terminal bull provides growth and/or carcass traits. This is the indisputable best we can do, without question, if maximizing commodity beef is our goal. The challenge is sourcing those crossbred cows.

Disagree there are either matings where you select for either terminal traits and breeding traits or some degree in between . You can have both within the same herd.
Every mating is either inbreeding or outcrossing to some degree. A three way cross is a three way cross regardless of wether the crossbred animal is a cow or a bull. And to say one is better then the other is not supported by current research.

 

[TominTX]

While I agree that the particular cross of Charolais x Highland for a bull is questionable and probably not accomplishing much, I wouldn't necessarily go as far as to say a farm that sells crossbred bulls is not to be trusted.
Years ago, a good friend that was a long time well respected Charolais breeder, AI bred a few of his cows to Limousin and Saler bulls when they first came on the scene. If I remember correctly he said that some customers had asked him about doing that. He was upfront about saying what they were and wouldn't try to embellish anything.
A lot of Sim Angus, Balancers, and Limflex bulls are so led these days.

Keep in mind that a lot of todays "Breeds" of cattle are nothing more than a product of a crossbreeding program.

 

[Ky hills]

Keep in mind that a lot of todays "Breeds" of cattle are nothing more than a product of a crossbreeding program.

Yes and that likely applies to closed herd book breeds as well.

 

[Brute 23]

IMO, focus more on performance in your breeding program and less on breed.

 

[Allenw]

And you have how much experience with the type of cross suggested?
You have how much knowledge of the genetics of the Scottish highlander breed? Let alone personal experience?
Have you ever tested Scottish highlander beef or crosses with it in ?
Yet you know it is going to screw up what is going into his customers freezer?

It's a fire and ice cross if there ever was one, a continental breed crossed with a novelty breed. The size difference alone makes the cross unpredictable.

 

[Rmc]

It's a fire and ice cross if there ever was one, a continental breed crossed with a novelty breed. The size difference alone makes the cross unpredictable.

Yes the "novelty breed" with written documentation of the breed dating back to the 12 century. And testing done on three different continents showing showing similar tenderness traits. Their must be huge variation in genetics to have similar test results across three continents .
And why would you want to try something different especially in the north where a cross of this breed has the potential to reduce feed costs in excess of $100 per cow. No need to even look at something like that . Way easier to continue to feed high input cattle and go broke or have even more out of pocket costs for your welfare cattle .
Why would anyone actually look at doing anything different. It's not like there is a drought going on in lots of the country and 1000's of ranchers go broke every year. Just keep on doing the same thing

 

[Allenw]

Not knocking the Charolais or the Highlander, just can't make any sense out of using a crossbred bull of the two breeds.

 

[uplandnut]

This is amusing as I don't believe anyone has seen a picture of this bull to give a judgment on whether he even has good conformation. I couldn't care less if he's crossbred of purebred but I do like my bulls to have a good conformation and be sound. I wish the op best of luck with his charolais x highlander bull and hope he has a great farm to table market to sell his product at.

 

[Aero]

I've had a small herd of 5 red angus for 4 years now so still quite new to this. I process and sell 1-2 a year to friends/family and sell/sale barn the rest. I'd like to add some heterosis to my calves and have the option to buy a reasonably priced Charolais-highland bull from a trusted ranch. I kinda like that the highland genetics "might" add a little forage efficiency. But everything I read on cross-breeding emphasizes crossbred dams with purebred sires. Is this still worth thinking about or should I stick with RA bulls? Is there some common wisdom on crossbred bulls with purebred dams?

The majority of benefits from heterosis will be shown in the cow's longevity and fertility. Growth sees a considerably smaller bump. You're thinking way too hard here and could probably do a lot better with a yearling bull with EPDs that make sense for what you are trying to change.