Criminals

[Jogeephus]

Just wondering how many new criminals we have this year. Congress passed 40,000 new laws in 2013 so I can't help but wonder how many of us are now law breaking criminals not worthy of our freedom.

Have it on good authority that the FDA recently changed the wording in their regulations regarding antibiotics. Not sure how or when this will come in effect but with this wording change livestock producers will no longer be able to buy antibiotics without going through a veterinarian. Might want to invest in some LA200 because I suspect its fixing to get expensive.

Also, after talking to our secretary of state's office I am told many of you will be having to show proof of citizenship like we do in Georgia. Seems it a federal law (Homeland Security) that Georgia has jumped on and complied with ahead of most states. Thus far I have had to send in seven sworn affidavits to various government entities to prove I'm an American. I don't know why but I feel like I, as a white, heterosexual taxpaying male who gets nothing from the government but grief, am being discriminated against.

Don't get me wrong. If I thought for one minute any of this would actually be helpful I wouldn't mind the extra trouble one bit but until I see bus loads of illegals leaving the country and ICE not eating lunch with illegals I just find it all just a waste of my time and just more intrusion into my freedom.

 

[inyati13]

Jo, I am going to guess that few of those violations of the 40,000 new laws are criminal violations. More likely to be civil violations requiring a penalty. But your point is well taken.

 

[Commercialfarmer]

This ought to make you feel better about it.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... g-voters-/

I'd just tell them that you are an undocumented democrat and if they don't give you what you came for, you'll have no choice but to take it to the media.

 

[ANAZAZI]

Ayn Rand comes to mind:

"The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws."

 

[backhoeboogie]

They called me in to work. Plant trip. Salaried so I aint getting paid and have put in a lot of free hours. Logged in here and read this, first thing Jo.

My speedometer had me going 73 mph a couple of times coming in. Had to take my foot off of the gas going down hill. I was not wearing a seatbelt. Not exactly sure if I came to a complete stop at the stop sign on my road. There was no other cars on the road and I was going slow to dodge the pot holes.

What is your definition of criminal? I think we are all guilty of something. You have never pulled the tag off of your bed mattress have you?

I am sure I have broken many more laws today in my ignorance of what's legal and what's not. 40 thousand new laws that I am not familiar with?

 

[cow pollinater]

I have accepted that I'm a worthless criminal. I spent around thirty years believing that the law really meant something and now I just do whatever I think is right and pump money into the system when I get caught doing something that society says I'm not supposed to be doing. I consider it to be another tax. My personal morality is about the only law I follow anymore.
There is no way that you could navigate through life here in CA as a farmer/rancher/dairyman without breaking a few laws. Here in CA we actually have so many regulatory agencies that are not qualified to make law but have done so anyway that some laws contradict each other and you're forced to choose between the lessor of two evils in regulatory agencies.
May God help you if you get caught breaking an environmental/fish and game law here. You are literally more apt to make the news complete with a name and photo for shooting a stray dog or a pig that you don't have a tag for than you are for murder.

 

[HOSS]

Jo, you are right about the LA200, penicillin and other antibiotics and vaccines. It was the topic of discussion in our cattlemans association dinner last week. I think allot of that is driven by the veterinarian lobby. They were successful in getting a law passed here where a vet has to do the palpating at sale barns or cattle sales or anywhere a fee is paid because it is a medical procedure.

 

[Jogeephus]

CF, that is an interesting article and helps explain why I'm having to fill out all these affidavits. What's really interesting is seeing I am just a poor bloke stuck in the middle of a childish spat. According to the article the feds say you can't and according to our Secretary of State's office the feds are forcing THEM to make us do this. Who do you believe? All I know is its a royal pain in the rear. Your article mentions that they fear the voters could become disenfranchised. What about the taxpayer? Makes you want to go Galt.

Hoss, my dad was a vet and there was a guy who did a lot of large animal work without a license. My dad said it was wrong for him to do this but he was a very talented person and he did a lot of work that many vets didn't want to do so his opinion was that the animals were getting good treatment so who was he to complain - so he didn't. In fact he would even refer work to this guy. The definition of veterinary medicine is the art and science that deals with the maintenance of health in and the prevention, alleviation, and cure of disease and injury in animals. I would argue there are many people who have mastered this art without any formal training and that just because one has formal training does not guarantee they have mastered or will ever master the "art". IMO, I think palpation is an art and it takes constant practice to keep the feel adjusted. They guy I use to palpate probably never finished high school but he is far better than our local vet and he regularly can call the due date within two weeks.

 

[Commercialfarmer]

Hoss, I don't think that the current regulations are being pushed by the veterinary crowd. I think it is being pushed on us by the folks trying to blame animals for bacterial resistance- which is completely incorrect. It is the use of misplaced fear again that they are using to push more regulation. I think it's purpose is to just increase cost and difficulty of production.

Think about this, with all this residue testing and regulations of medications/vaccines and now funneling everything through a licensed veterinarian... if you were the guy with a livelihood hinging on that piece of paper (granted by the government), would you want to deal with all these new regulations and the potential consequences? I see in the future an increase in mal-practice premiums for these guys and that will be passed on to everyone else.



I think that there is a sensible middle ground. I'm quite glad that there is a minimal level of ignorance a physician, veterinarian, pharmacist, optometrist, etc.. has to pass before being released on the public. They all have to pass a national board. It doesn't mean that they will all make great decisions, but they at least had to pass the school program and retain enough basic knowledge to pass a national board.

These positions can heal but can also cause significant harm. I like that there is a little overview. Just like I like that there is suppose to be overview of all governmental branches as they can cause significant harm.

Oklahoma now allows teeth to be floated by individuals who are not licensed veterinarians. They cannot sedate without a vet's approval or involvement, but they can perform the work. They have to go through a small training course. I think it is a win, win. There is enough potential for disaster, I'm okay that a small amount of training is required. It isn't 8 years and 2 degrees.

As far as palpation, maybe a palpation course should be required for individuals wanting to make a job out of it. When they pass a certain proficiency, release them on the public with whatever limitations that are appropriate. I hate regulating it to extreme, but I think when you are taking a medical procedure (diagnosis of pregnancy) and placing it in the hands of a regular joe- there can be problems (the colon isn't the most sturdy organ in the body). I think there is a middle ground. There is also a need. There aren't enough large animal vets in the country any more. Which will make this new set of laws even more interesting.

Currently here, you can do a lot to your own stock. You just can't do it for someone else.

 

[inyati13]

Jo, even if the law or regulation that is being broken carries a criminal penalty, the burden is on the Regulatory Authority (RA) to prove criminal intent. Most civil acts, laws, statutes and regulations that carry a criminal penalty have a threshold of proving "knowing and willful". For example, in environmental law if the owner/operator of a service station accidentally knocks over a can of toxic/hazardous material and it runs into a municipal storm drain, it would be impossible to prove "knowing and willful". On the other hand, if the lady acorss the street who runs a flower shop sees you pick upa can of waste, carry it to the street storm drain and knowingly and willfully pour it into the stormdrain, the RA may elect to seek a criminal prosecution for your actions. It is rarely done in my experience; more likely a one time act of this nature would be prosecuted with a civil penalty and they would not have a criminal record. Generally, Regulatory Authorities seek criminal action for bad customers such as individuals or operators who take a tanker load of toxic/harardous waste out on the prairies of Wyoming and dump it in the middle of the night. The driver of the truck is subject to criminal charges but the person who is responsible for directing such acts would be the one that the RA would want to nail.

 

[Jogeephus]

Inyati, I follow your logic but disagree because you are applying too much lawyer talk which muddies the issue. I prefer to keep things simple. A criminal by definition is a person who has committed a crime and by definition, a crime is an illegal act for which someone can be punished by the government. Now the consequences of being a criminal may be different from crime to crime and most of your civil types are dealt with a fine but jail is also an option. Now we have 40,000 more laws we have to abide by and these laws will spawn an infinite number of new regulations most of which, like you say, will be civil in nature and will be settled out of court by fines and in these cases you are guilty until you prove yourself innocent.

 

[inyati13]

Jo, let us follow this under your premises. Is someone who gets a parking citation a criminal?

 

[TexasBred]

Jo, even if the law or regulation that is being broken carries a criminal penalty, the burden is on the Regulatory Authority (RA) to prove criminal intent. Most civil acts, laws, statutes and regulations that carry a criminal penalty have a threshold of proving "knowing and willful". For example, in environmental law if the owner/operator of a service station accidentally knocks over a can of toxic/hazardous material and it runs into a municipal storm drain, it would be impossible to prove "knowing and willful". On the other hand, if the lady acorss the street who runs a flower shop sees you pick upa can of waste, carry it to the street storm drain and knowingly and willfully pour it into the stormdrain, the RA may elect to seek a criminal prosecution for your actions. It is rarely done in my experience; more likely a one time act of this nature would be prosecuted with a civil penalty and they would not have a criminal record. Generally, Regulatory Authorities seek criminal action for bad customers such as individuals or operators who take a tanker load of toxic/harardous waste out on the prairies of Wyoming and dump it in the middle of the night. The driver of the truck is subject to criminal charges but the person who is responsible for directing such acts would be the one that the RA would want to nail.

Not that way in Texas. Need to talk with some of the dairies, feed companies etc. that have had totally accidental spills of one sort or another and received huge fines. "I'm sorry it was an accident" doesn't work with these folks even when you're talking about nothing more serious than storm water (rain) going across your place and accumulating somewhere else.

 

[inyati13]

Jo, even if the law or regulation that is being broken carries a criminal penalty, the burden is on the Regulatory Authority (RA) to prove criminal intent. Most civil acts, laws, statutes and regulations that carry a criminal penalty have a threshold of proving "knowing and willful". For example, in environmental law if the owner/operator of a service station accidentally knocks over a can of toxic/hazardous material and it runs into a municipal storm drain, it would be impossible to prove "knowing and willful". On the other hand, if the lady acorss the street who runs a flower shop sees you pick upa can of waste, carry it to the street storm drain and knowingly and willfully pour it into the stormdrain, the RA may elect to seek a criminal prosecution for your actions. It is rarely done in my experience; more likely a one time act of this nature would be prosecuted with a civil penalty and they would not have a criminal record. Generally, Regulatory Authorities seek criminal action for bad customers such as individuals or operators who take a tanker load of toxic/harardous waste out on the prairies of Wyoming and dump it in the middle of the night. The driver of the truck is subject to criminal charges but the person who is responsible for directing such acts would be the one that the RA would want to nail.

Not that way in Texas. Need to talk with some of the dairies, feed companies etc. that have had totally accidental spills of one sort or another and received huge fines. "I'm sorry it was an accident" doesn't work with these folks even when you're talking about nothing more serious than storm water (rain) going across your place and accumulating somewhere else.

TB, I bet they were pursued as civil violations not criminal. That is my point. Yes accidents that violate regulations will be cited and civil action pursued to completion but not on a criminal basis.

 

[inyati13]

Jo, the public would largely be horrified by what goes on in the world of enforcement both by the violator and the regulator. I cannot ethically tell you what I have seen regulators do. My first cases before administrative law judges was one of the most dramatic educations I ever got. So your concern is more well founded than you may know. From the point of discovery to the last day in court it is a disgusting business .

 

[greybeard]

Dang hoodie wearing hoodlums.


This one got a ticket.

 

[Jogeephus]

Jo, let us follow this under your premises. Is someone who gets a parking citation a criminal?

Yes. By raw definition the person is. You can decriminalize things if you wish. Like marijuana use in Colorado. How can it be legal if it violates federal law? If you are caught with the same amount in Georgia you will be locked up. So how is it that these entities can create these regulations and pick and choose what they choose to enforce or not enforce? What is their driving logic? It appears to me that when they find it is no longer lucrative to enforce a law they simply move on to some new scheme that is. Just like the seat belt law. This is merely a money making scheme. Incarcerating people for drugs is not. What poses a larger threat to society - the unbuckled madman behind the wheel of a vehicle driving safely down the highway or the drug dealer peddling societal rot?

If you disagree with me then tell me what happens to someone who refuses to pay the "fee" or is unable to? They go to jail right? Money only cleanses you.

 

[highgrit]

We the people sure have a big mountain to climb. In all reality we very few laws, just follow what's said in the bible. The book of Exodus pretty much spells it out. And what is missed in the 10 Commandments, the Constitution of the USA will fill the gaps just fine. We are all going to be criminals sooner or later. I am not going to change the way I believe, a lot of blood has been shed for our freedom.

 

[inyati13]

Jo, let us follow this under your premises. Is someone who gets a parking citation a criminal?

Yes. By raw definition the person is. You can decriminalize things if you wish. Like marijuana use in Colorado. How can it be legal if it violates federal law? If you are caught with the same amount in Georgia you will be locked up. So how is it that these entities can create these regulations and pick and choose what they choose to enforce or not enforce? What is their driving logic? It appears to me that when they find it is no longer lucrative to enforce a law they simply move on to some new scheme that is. Just like the seat belt law. This is merely a money making scheme. Incarcerating people for drugs is not. What poses a larger threat to society - the unbuckled madman behind the wheel of a vehicle driving safely down the highway or the drug dealer peddling societal rot?

If you disagree with me then tell me what happens to someone who refuses to pay the "fee" or is unable to? They go to jail right? Money only cleanses you.

Jo, I agree that there are too many laws and regulations. I was putting the fine point on the issue that not all the laws and regulations count as criminal violations. Even the Regulatory Authorities are over-taxed by all the laws and regulatons they are charged with enforcing. It would be an eye-opener to know how many laws and regulations are totally ignored because of the sheer number that exist.

 

[TexasBred]

We the people sure have a big mountain to climb. In all reality we very few laws, just follow what's said in the bible. The book of Exodus pretty much spells it out. And what is missed in the 10 Commandments, the Constitution of the USA will fill the gaps just fine. We are all going to be criminals sooner or later. I am not going to change the way I believe, a lot of blood has been shed for our freedom.

A lot of blood has been shed and lives lost upholding the laws of the land as well. Even Jesus opened the laws of the land even though he didn't always agree with them. ;-)