crazy electrical sh.....

[fenceman]

About a month ago the lights in the house started flicking. Sometimes they would dim. Sometimes they would get extremely bright.
One time I thought the ceiling fan was going to take the roof off. The wife would run the dryer and the lights flash like a disco tech.
The shop on the same meter, is also affected.
I've lost a tv a electric fence charger, and the circuit board on the aerobic septic , in the past few weeks.
I've had electric co-op out twice, said transformer is ok. They messed with ground bar in meter box, fixed things for a couple of days.
Next comes the electrician. He pours water around ground rod, fixed it. For a couple of days. This does seem to be the root of the problem. If the lights start flicking, I can pour a bucket of water around ground rod and it will temporarily fix it.
So I decided to add a ground rod. Problem still exists.
Here's my theory and plan
We're my house sits there's about a foot of soil, and then solid bedrock. When the hole was drilled for the light pole, it was backfield with the ground up rock and gravel, very little soil. Due to the rock the ground rods are drove right beside the pole, exploiting the softer ground..
I think maybe the very heavy rains early this year washed the soil to the bottom of the hole, leaving the ground rods in a fine limestone gravel.(does that make sense.?)

Now I certainly have the equipment to drill into the rock, I don't it regularly for electric fence. But I'm thinking maybe better to dig a trench, and lay a couple of ground rods in..opinions.
This problem is new, the pole and grounds are12 years old.

 

[skyhightree1]

It may help to do as you say dig a trench put them in the bottom and occasionally add water or make it where if it rains it pools water really well. I had some grounding issues with my electric fence similar to that

 

[cowboy43]

I am retired from a electric coop , like you said it is a bad ground connection , it could be on the transformer , where the meter loop ties into coop service, or in the meter base, Or in your house, a ground rod is used for safety not to ground the circuit for good voltage , if all connections are good where I mentioned, a ground rod is not needed to supply proper voltage, a ground rod is for safety. I hate to say this but some coop employees are linemen working on 7200 volts or higher they are not electricians or troubleshooters, when it comes to working on secondary voltage they are lost, I have seen experienced lineman with years of service make mistakes when it comes to trouble shooting, it is the same with electricians because they can wire a house does not mean they can shoot trouble,
You have a bad ground connection either on your side in the house , in the meter base or the coop has a bad ground, it needs to be properly diagnosed quickly because where the bad connection is located is heating up and could cause a fire.
You said this stared a month ago, the ground was not that dry a month ago and past years have been drier, I do not mean to be blunt but I believe you are barking up the wrong tree with the ground rod theory , I am just concerned for you and your family's safety. Good luck

 

[fenceman]

Thanks you so much. I have no doubt something smells fishy here.

Maybe I can give a little more info.
When things go haywire , I can cut all power to house. Problem still exists in shop. And vice versa. To me this isolates problem to pole, meter, transformer?
The main breakers to house and shop or both on pole directly under meter.
I've went out at night with my bucket of water and seen a arc traveling from top of breaker box to meter box, about 6 inches. Pour water around ground rod everything goes normal.
I've personally watched the co-op lineman, and the electrician check and tighten all connections.
I've also checked them myself.
I'm certainly no electrician. I am a ase certified master auto tech. So I know a loose screw from a tight one.

One more thing, the electrician told me something about the co-op should have a ground every so far.(does that make sense)
I'm way (about2 miles) at the end of a line. My parents house is on same line but has a different transformer.

I sincerely thank you for your concern and advice. Fenceman

 

[cowboy43]

You need a voltage meter to test correctly, check were the wires come out of the meter base and contact the breaker box, cut all the circuits off, you should have 120/120/240 or close to it. Then turn each breaker on as you check voltage on the 120 leg Voltage should remain constant, if the voltage fluctuates the bad ground is from the meter base up to transf.
If you have an outlet on the pole plug an electric drill in it to test voltage, if all grounds are good the voltage remains constant, if the voltage fluctuates the bad ground is from that point up.
That is how the coop should have checked to make sure where the bad connection is. You can not check property with out pulling a load on one circuit.

 

[skyhightree1]

I will tell you one thing electrical I found is nuisance tripping from arc fault breakers when you have it tied to an outlet with a fence charger on it. Seems they are just too sensitive for their own good.

 

[greybeard]

Could be bad or intermittent ground, but sounds more like a flaky neutral to me. Almost everything will run without a ground (tho not neccessarily safely) Ground is for safety. Neutral tho has to be there for even the simplest 110 or 220 circuit to work "right".

 

[Nesikep]

I have a hard time seeing this as a ground problem... the ground in household electrical is different from the ground in automotive... in automotive you're getting one side of your power from the ground, not so in household, you get both sides from the transformer (the two sides of the 240, and the center tap neutral, which is also tied to ground). To me it sounds like you have a bad neutral connection, so since neutral and ground are really both considered 0 volts and tied together, when you pour the water around your ground rod you're just making it possible for current to flow from ground to feed the circuit and take some of the load off the neutral.. it's not fixing the root problem of being unable to draw enough power through the neutral.. Could be a hot I guess too that's swinging the voltage around.

If you have a 1500W heater you can plug in, try that and measure the voltage on that plug loaded and unloaded, then plug it into a receptacle that's on the other leg.. if you have a significant (5+v) voltage drop only on one leg, I'd look at a problem with the hots, if it happens on both legs I'd look at the neutral

 

[SteppedInIt]

I had this happen in my house this spring. My A/C quit working one day. Breaker wasn't tripped but I flipped it anyway. A/C started running. The next day lights were flickering, stove started going off(you could tell cuz the time was flashing). Was really strange and kept getting worse. A/C stopped working again. Went and flipped the untripped breaker heard crackling. Pulled breaker and found the bars were wore/burnt where the breaker connects. Pulled the other breakers of troubled circuits, same thing. I had to have the box replaced.

 

[CottageFarm]

Thanks you so much. I have no doubt something smells fishy here.

Maybe I can give a little more info.
When things go haywire , I can cut all power to house. Problem still exists in shop. And vice versa. To me this isolates problem to pole, meter, transformer?
The main breakers to house and shop or both on pole directly under meter.
I've went out at night with my bucket of water and seen a arc traveling from top of breaker box to meter box, about 6 inches. Pour water around ground rod everything goes normal.
I've personally watched the co-op lineman, and the electrician check and tighten all connections.
I've also checked them myself.
I'm certainly no electrician. I am a ase certified master auto tech. So I know a loose screw from a tight one.

One more thing, the electrician told me something about the co-op should have a ground every so far.(does that make sense)
I'm way (about2 miles) at the end of a line. My parents house is on same line but has a different transformer.

I sincerely thank you for your concern and advice. Fenceman

Pictures of your panel that show how the lines are routed from the meter would help. I would be skeptical of a grounding system failure at the house (pole) after 12 years. Did you have problems during the drought years?? So, you can try burying the ground rods, and it may help somewhat, just as the water on your existing rods helps temporarily. Personally, I would be looking for a neutral failure thats not allowing a complete current loop, or a grounding issue at the transformer, but nothing can be diagnosed further without a voltage test on a circuit under load. :2cents:

 

[4x4dually]

The last house that I saw do this was nuts. I spent 30 minutes in the house with a meter and found the neutral was floating. Went outside and looked up above the pole. The fools that tied in the overhead clamped the ground from the road to the ground from the shop. Then clamped the ground from the house to the ground going down the pole. Something like that. I don't remember exactly, but there were two pair of returns and they weren't common to each other. This house had been this way for years and years. The soil conditions just got so it finally started taking it's toll with the drought.

Neutral, ground, whatever. They are typically tied together on the same bus bar under the meter anyway. The neutral is created by the center tap on the transformer. The earth ground tied to it just keeps it pulled down to "ground" or 0 volts and keeps it from floating. When it floats, you can have 120 between line and neutral, but in reference to earth ground, it could be 160 and 40. Make sense?

When you notice this mojo going on, use a DMM and measure the voltage from the neutral in the house panel to a good earth ground. I'd bet it won't be 0 volts. $.02

Personally, I would be looking for a neutral failure thats not allowing a complete current loop, or a grounding issue at the transformer, but nothing can be diagnosed further without a voltage test on a circuit under load. :2cents:

Exackary. :clap:

 

[lavacarancher]

Several folks have correctly identified the problem with the neutral circuit, not the ground. The ground is a safety feature. There is a ground wire run to the bottom of the service pole, another one from the meter loop/main disconnect box to ground and yet another from the breaker box in or attached to the house. You are losing neutral intermittently through a loose connection somewhere between the pole/transformer/meter loop and the rest of the distribution. I would be willing to bet that all of your 220V appliances or tools function just fine but all of your 110V stuff is going crazy. Only the 110V equipment uses neutral as a return path.

Get your co op folks back out there to fix the problem. HeII, the problem could and probably is at the transformer. This is not something you should be messing with.

 

[4x4dually]

Something I've also noticed when working on these older farm houses....just because the screw on a lug is tight, doesn't mean it is tight on the wire. Typically when folks put copper wire into an aluminum lug, they corrode over time due to dissimilar metals. The corrosion makes you think the set screw is tight, and it is as far as the wrench is concerned, but it might not be tightening down on the wire. What sucks is, most of these old panels will break if you try to touch the set screws. Be careful. If you can, take the neutrals loose, cut and re-strip the ends, and re-terminate.

If you have a partial neutral connection, it may be able to pass 0 to say 30 amps just fine. If your panel is balanced for the most part, and you pull 60 amps from phase 1 and 50 amps from phase 2, then the neutral only has to carry 10 amps. Your 220 VAC stuff should have almost no current on neutral. Therefore, you might only be seeing this problem when the panel gets unbalanced due to your 120 VAC stuff being mostly on one phase or the other with very little demand on the other side.

I know, it is single phase, but there are still two. That whole debate infuriates me. LOL

 

[dun]

The back story is that the original house burned so they used the orginal lead ins from the pole to supply the new one. They brought it in and spliced it with big split bolts and warpped it with electrician tape and ran it hrough juntion box just laying on the ground in the crawl space.
We had always had strange electrical things, dimming lights breakers tripping, etc. The first thing we found was the ground in all of the outlets and switches instead of being connected by the crew they were just slipped into the prong deal. A couple of them had arced enough through the years that the wire was burned through. I needed another 30 amp outlet on the back porch/sunroom. While the elctrician was crawling around he bumped the junction box and heard a snap. Pulled the cover off and both hots had burned through the tape and burned holes in the junction box, one hot was welded to it. The replaced that mess with new wire, connectors and a lot more tape. Haven;t had any issues with the elctricity since. Butu you have to remember that the original wiring was done by the same putz that used doubled up 14 ga with a bare ground (doubled) to run the 220 in the milk parlor.

 

[4x4dually]

They brought it in and spliced it with big split bolts and warpped it with electrician tape and ran it hrough juntion box just laying on the ground in the crawl space.

This is why we have the NEC. Rural structures can typically get away without any inspection what-so-ever around here. This is why we have these issues. Anyone that can hold a pair of pliers thinks they can wire a house. It is amazing some of the crap I've seen in the last 10 years around here.

I did my apprentice hours for an electrician in Stillwater, OK back when I started college. I got all my hours in and right up to the point of taking my journeyman's test but never took it since I graduated with a degree in electrical engineering. I've always thought it would be nice to quit this desk job and get back out in the field and have a new job setting every day or so. Then I see some of the cobbled up bull crap that folks have done and change my mind back to loving the desk job. LOL Now I just wire new structures on the side for friends. I hate messing with old stuff. It's always some FPE panel with welded breakers to the bus or someone wants a ceiling fan installed and the only power in the attic is knob-n-tube. LOL

 

[dun]

They brought it in and spliced it with big split bolts and warpped it with electrician tape and ran it through a junction box just laying on the ground in the crawl space.

This is why we have the NEC.

To paraphrase a famous quote: Code? We don;t need no stinking code!

 

[fenceman]

When it rains it pours. My phone died last night Im using a temp. Right now
new is being sent overnight. Im wanting to get some pics up maybe by morning.
4x4 much of what you said is making a lot of sense. Thank you
also what lavaca said is true the 240 stuff seems uneffected. Except the dryer.?

 

[Nesikep]

They brought it in and spliced it with big split bolts and warpped it with electrician tape and ran it hrough juntion box just laying on the ground in the crawl space.

This is why we have the NEC. Rural structures can typically get away without any inspection what-so-ever around here. This is why we have these issues. Anyone that can hold a pair of pliers thinks they can wire a house. It is amazing some of the crap I've seen in the last 10 years around here.

I did my apprentice hours for an electrician in Stillwater, OK back when I started college. I got all my hours in and right up to the point of taking my journeyman's test but never took it since I graduated with a degree in electrical engineering. I've always thought it would be nice to quit this desk job and get back out in the field and have a new job setting every day or so. Then I see some of the cobbled up bull crap that folks have done and change my mind back to loving the desk job. LOL Now I just wire new structures on the side for friends. I hate messing with old stuff. It's always some FPE panel with welded breakers to the bus or someone wants a ceiling fan installed and the only power in the attic is knob-n-tube. LOL

GUESS what I have to do next week.. exactly that! a bathroom exhaust fan in the attic with that kind of wiring!!

 

[4x4dually]

....also what lavaca said is true the 240 stuff seems uneffected. Except the dryer.?

3-Wire 240 VAC stuff won't show any problems. This is because they use both lines and have a safety ground. Neutral isn't in the picture. If you have a newer electric dryer, where they have started using 4-wire plugs, then yes, it will show signs most likely. It most likely uses the 240 VAC to power the heating coils and motor but the controls of the dryer are most likely 120 VAC and are using one line and the neutral. You can hook up the 4-wire dryers to a 3-wire plug but you will be returning the amount of the current difference between line a and line b down an un-insulated wire. Not a great idea. Thus, the code changed. CODE! I hate that book to no end. They can't write anything that a normal human can understand.

GUESS what I have to do next week.. exactly that! a bathroom exhaust fan in the attic with that kind of wiring!!

Nice. Enjoy that. It's always a pleasure to deal with knob-n-tube and plaster and lathe walls. :bang:

 

[Nesikep]

In that attic it's hard to tell the cobwebs from the wiring.. they run in about the same pattern, and are about the same thickness too

By the sounds of the wiring, it sounds seriously possible you have problems not just on the neutral but a hot as well... If you can take a voltmeter across a bunch of the joints while you have a load on it you should have 0 V across them... if you can put a heavy load on them you might be able to find something getting warm with an infrared thermometer too