Crazy Angus and Hereford Question

[gizmom]

We have a registered Angus herd, but also run some commercial cows my favorite cross has been Angus/Simmental the calves just work really well for us.

Gizmom

 

[angus9259]

I think that you all have offered some good information. It seems like common sence but when you are new in the 'beef" business all you want to do is get calves on the ground. I guess that I'm not behind the 8 ball, but I'm not in front of it either....lol. Taking all of your experience and advice into consideration I think that going with the BA mommas will probably suit me best. It helps that I just like these cows too. I'm going to get rid of everything. I think that I will start over again with as many quality BA cows as I can buy, get a good BA bull and breed for heifers until I get to where I want to be. JS, you have me thinking about some other things. If I understood correctly you pointed out that BA and herefords have simmilar traits. Crossing BA and herefords for market cattle (for me) does not seem like the way to go. When I get to the point where I can market all of my calves should I stay pure BA or go with a cross that will add improved growth like Simmental or Main Anjou? In the end my objective is raising grass fed beef without needing to pump them full of grain just to make weight. A 600lb weaning weight would be nice (and I am no where near that right now). Can I expect to get 600lb calves weaned at 6 mos. from straight BA stock with good genetics?

You have a lot of objectives. I would re-read Cow Pollinator's thread. Heavy wean weight calves are typically meant for the salebarn and / or feedlot. Grass fed is a whole different deal. If you're going to raise grass fed beef, then you are going to be finishing the animal too and selling sides? But then you're going to market your calves? Or, when you say you want to sell "grass fed beef" do you mean you just want to feed your cows grass and not grain? That should be plausible in any breed. BUT, if you want to maximize their wean performance, you'll need to cross it up.

It actually sounds a little more like you just like black angus . . . which is fine . . . . what's not to like . . . but if I were going to "market" calves, they wouldn't be straight angus for all the reason mentioned. Also, "good genetics" are a moving target. Many forage based Angus programs throttle back on the milk and calf wean weights in favor of "doability, longevity, and breedabiliy" at low forage costs. Some consider those "good genetics". But they are typically less likely to wean off a 600 lb calf as a 1407 daughter will. That said, the good forage based genetics might get fat on a lot of grass and never be able to translate that to wean weight.

In short . . . . focus on what you really want to do and black angus may not be the answer (shut my mouth) unless you just really want to raise black angus.

 

[expensive hobby]

I think that it is obvious: I'm really not quite sure where I want to go with running beef. Would like to get to between 40-50 mommas, build up some clients to purchase some sides and sell all other offspring at the sale barn or somewhere else. I can keep some steers over to raise for this reason but don't have room for all of them. I guess that as a small time farmer I am trying to "diversify" in order to get a feel of the business. The beef market seems like a crazy place and if you are not well informed you can just watch your profits fly right out the window (just the operating costs will kill ya). It seems like the sale barn is a very unforgiving place. In trying to stay away from there I have decided to try to sell some custom beef and have thought about other ways to sell my animals. Thank goodness for forums like this one. I have been able to "realize" quite a bit from all of your replies and I appreciate all of your help. Now I have more of an idea of what I need to do. The past few years I have spent trying to figure it all out. Although none of us can make this an exact science its nice to know that there are great people out there (like you all) that are willing to share their experiences to help others. Some of you have mentioned a F1. What exactly is this. Probably a simple question for you to answer but I really have no clue. Also, one last question, are there bulls that tend to produce heifer calves and others that tend to have bulls calves? My first 2 bulls have produced mostly heifers.

 

[KNERSIE]

Here is a whole different take on things... getting you in production sooner and saving you loads of money in the process...

Keep all your best milking cows regardless of what they look like, buy a really good beefy bull of the breed of your choice, say its angus. Use him till he has daughters that needs to be bred, buy a yearling bull of another breed, say hereford, to use on the first bull's heifers, repeat the process when the second bull has daughters old enough to be bred, but this time sell the 1st bull and buy another bull of the same breed as bull no 1.

We all want front pasture cows, but they are expensive. The difference a really good, genetically stabile, bull will make should never be underestimated.

 

[MF135]

Thanks for the info. I like the black angus breed and probably will buy some registered animals to replace my stock. Of course my goal is the same as everyone else: to wean the heaviest calves in the fall. I guess this is why I plan to cross breed instead of turning out pure breds. I just was not sure if you would get better vigor from crossing one way or the other. Or would a 3 way or 4 way cross be best? I do a little custom beef and do not want to compromise meat quality. Just wondering what others have learned. I have a neighbor that is playing with Santa Gertrudis and they are nice heavy animals. I just do not think that they are necessary in this area and probably will take some deductions at auction. Would be nice to see what would happen if Black angus and Santas were crossed. Would probably still have the ear and be red?

Angus cows x charolais bull.

 

[expensive hobby]

MF135- from what I have been told angus cows x charolais bull = calving problems. Any experience with this cross?

 

[Isomade]

MF135- from what I have been told angus cows x charolais bull = calving problems. Any experience with this cross?

Yep, every year. All I run is Charolais bulls and that was a big concern 15 years ago, but not any more. There can be calving problems with any breed. You need to buy bulls from reputable breeders with proven EPDs and smooth shoulders (on the bull, not the breeder) ;-) . I have no calving trouble.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Not knowing any thing more about expensive hobbys cow herd than i have read on here i would hate to tell him he would not have calving problems with a char bull or a limi for that matter. His cows might not be able to pass a peach seed for all we no.

 

[djinwa]

Let me again make some unpopular comments on the idea of black cows. I'm not sure why color is not considered an important selection criteria as it does affect performance. Sure, black can pay more at selling time, but how much did it cost before that?

Been awhile since I took physics and chemistry, so someone correct anything here that needs it.

Why is anything black? Because of it's chemistry. Whatever the black thing is absorbs radiation instead of reflecting it. And since one type of radiation, light, is absorbed and not reflected, it looks black. And when radiation like that from the sun is absorbed, it makes the molecule vibrate. When molecules are vibrating a lot, we call them hot.

So, black cows will be hotter unless you can keep a shade over all your pasture.

And hotter cows eat less, and expend more energy trying to cool themselves through panting, etc. That energy is not put into milk and growth.

And hotter cows have more fertility problems.

And hotter cows or bulls can die on you, as we saw this year in many parts of the country.

So if you love angus, why not get red angus?

Here's some articles, including one on heat stress and profitability.

http://www.cattletoday.com/archive/2007 ... 1033.shtml

http://vetmed.iastate.edu/vdpam/extensi ... eef-cattle

http://www.stockmangrassfarmer.net/cgi- ... cgi?id=570

Something to consider is that cattle begin feeling the effects of the heat at about 70 degrees F. What that means is that producers need to consider the fact that their cattle are probably hot even when they themselves are not.
In the initial or early stages, when cattle start to suffer from heat, the early signs are not always apparent. Feed and roughage intake may drop a little but the animal may be fairly uncomfortable way before that. As cattle heat up and feed intake drops, cattle begin using additional energy in order to help keep themselves cool, therefore, heat stress reduces production and efficiency. Once this performance level drops it becomes very difficult to get it back.

Solar radiation is a critical component that can lead to death loss from heat stress. Typically, proportionality more black hided cattle die during heat waves then other hide colors.

Shade can be critical in determining whether cattle die during extreme heat events, especially for black cattle.

Black haired and black hided animals such as the Angus absolutely have to have access to shade in hot weather. These cattle were developed in a cloudy, misty region and do not do well in open, sunny pastures.
At 90 degrees F, Bonsma said the hide temperature of a black haired, black hided animal will be between 113 and 122 degrees F.

 

[Lon]

Not knowing any thing more about expensive hobbys cow herd than i have read on here i would hate to tell him he would not have calving problems with a char bull or a limi for that matter. His cows might not be able to pass a peach seed for all we no.

i would agree also.
expensive hobby you should have an idea of what your cows are capable of. i have just loosly read this thread but just some ideas here for ya expensive hobby. first thing i would do is like kernsi said and go with what i have keeping the best from them sense you are small it is harder to wrap up alot of money in new cows with what they are bringing. also i would get to know my cows good. not meaning personality wise but what birthwieght of calves are they throwing. what are these calves shaped like when born. are they having an easy time with the calves they are throwing. and keep in mind the bull makes a difference but ya need to least know what your cows are capable of first off. its always easy to get a big beefy bull but alot of people who dont have the experience with cattle just think of a big muscular bull on the cows without thinking ahead of time about calving. now if you are confidant that your cows can handle bigger calves than yup char bull for sure as a terminal sire. if they can handle it at calving time because remember the way the calf is shaped and the cow have more to do with calving than just the calf bw. if you not sure than dont use one cause a dead calf and a tore up cow aint worth much. just some quick thoughts off the top of my head.

 

[Lon]

MF135- from what I have been told angus cows x charolais bull = calving problems. Any experience with this cross?

Yep, every year. All I run is Charolais bulls and that was a big concern 15 years ago, but not any more. There can be calving problems with any breed. You need to buy bulls from reputable breeders with proven EPDs and smooth shoulders (on the bull, not the breeder) ;-) . I have no calving trouble.

hey there isomade if you know alot about different char bulls i sure would appreciate if you could pm about some good breeders and some good bulls to look at. thanks

 

[Isomade]

Not knowing any thing more about expensive hobbys cow herd than i have read on here i would hate to tell him he would not have calving problems with a char bull or a limi for that matter. His cows might not be able to pass a peach seed for all we no.

And that was why I made the statement "you can have calving problems with any breed". There are Chars, Angus, Limis, and Herfs that produce 60-75 pound calves and some that produce 100-120 pound calves. I don't know the first thing about his cows or his market. Thise Char calves might not fare so well in Pennsylvania. I just answered his question.

 

[Gators Rule]

i absolutely would NOT sell off all my cows if I were in your position. I would as someone mentioned (knersie?)earlier, just basically cull through your cows, selling old, poor milking, hard keeping type cows, and hold on to your best. The reason is I think it would be a lot more economical to take the money coming from the sold cattle, and then buy the necessary bull, and some higher quality cattle that will eventually will be the foundation of your new herd. Do the same thing on the following year...until you have the number you're looking for...

 

[MF135]

Not knowing any thing more about expensive hobbys cow herd than i have read on here i would hate to tell him he would not have calving problems with a char bull or a limi for that matter. His cows might not be able to pass a peach seed for all we no.

And that was why I made the statement "you can have calving problems with any breed". There are Chars, Angus, Limis, and Herfs that produce 60-75 pound calves and some that produce 100-120 pound calves. I don't know the first thing about his cows or his market. Thise Char calves might not fare so well in Pennsylvania. I just answered his question.

Exactly. When there's people (on this board) keeping 96lb Angus bull calves as potential herd sired, Angus no longer equates to calving ease. There are many top notch charolais breeders in SD. Eaton, Wells, Wienk, Sandmeier just to name drop a few.

 

[MF135]

Thought the op's location was SD. I'm sure there's a rep. Char breeder in Pennsylvania

 

[KNERSIE]

i absolutely would NOT sell off all my cows if I were in your position. I would as someone mentioned (knersie?)earlier, just basically cull through your cows, selling old, poor milking, hard keeping type cows, and hold on to your best. The reason is I think it would be a lot more economical to take the money coming from the sold cattle, and then buy the necessary bull, and some higher quality cattle that will eventually will be the foundation of your new herd. Do the same thing on the following year...until you have the number you're looking for...

It shows who had to make the best from their less than ideal situation because they were dependant on a profit from cattle...

 

[hillbillycwo]

Have read on here from many that the raio of weaning weight to cow weight is very important in the decision to keep or cull a cow. I have some really crossed up cows and I have culled with this in mind along with how the cows condition is affected by the pasture I have and the feed inputs I use. The calf quality at weaning time is big for me more so that the cow breed. Being a new producer I took the advice of those on here and culled my herd to the very best cows and bought hte best bull I could afford with emphasis on his maternal EPD's to keep heifers out of him to further cull and increase as my herd as the pasture improves. Just my two cents but I would definitely do some searches on here about culling and weaning weights. There has been some awesome threads on those topics. Either way you decide to go have fun and good luck!

 

[JSCATTLE]

When I quit working on other farms and desided to buy my own cows ... I started with some Brahma cross cows.. for my area they work best .. they weren't the best looking cows but they milked well .. put a charolis bull with them and had good calves .. after a couple years I started buying brangus heifers from a ranch that produces bulls. He doesn't register his heifers just his bulls....now 10 years later all if the cross breds are gone .. and I'm running brangus bulls and horned hereford bulls... but my goal is to sell commercial females .. and butcher calves... you first need a goal in mind as far as what you want to do with your calves...then pick a breed that's good for your area and go with it.. as was said before you will go broke selling all your cows now and buying back in ... I'm expecting bred heifers to go for 1400 a head this spring if the drought breaks ....good luck

 

[BoJack Cattle]

Let me again make some unpopular comments on the idea of black cows. I'm not sure why color is not considered an important selection criteria as it does affect performance. Sure, black can pay more at selling time, but how much did it cost before that?

Been awhile since I took physics and chemistry, so someone correct anything here that needs it.

Why is anything black? Because of it's chemistry. Whatever the black thing is absorbs radiation instead of reflecting it. And since one type of radiation, light, is absorbed and not reflected, it looks black. And when radiation like that from the sun is absorbed, it makes the molecule vibrate. When molecules are vibrating a lot, we call them hot.

So, black cows will be hotter unless you can keep a shade over all your pasture.

And hotter cows eat less, and expend more energy trying to cool themselves through panting, etc. That energy is not put into milk and growth.

And hotter cows have more fertility problems.

And hotter cows or bulls can die on you, as we saw this year in many parts of the country.

So if you love angus, why not get red angus?

Here's some articles, including one on heat stress and profitability.

http://www.cattletoday.com/archive/2007 ... 1033.shtml

http://vetmed.iastate.edu/vdpam/extensi ... eef-cattle

http://www.stockmangrassfarmer.net/cgi- ... cgi?id=570

Something to consider is that cattle begin feeling the effects of the heat at about 70 degrees F. What that means is that producers need to consider the fact that their cattle are probably hot even when they themselves are not.
In the initial or early stages, when cattle start to suffer from heat, the early signs are not always apparent. Feed and roughage intake may drop a little but the animal may be fairly uncomfortable way before that. As cattle heat up and feed intake drops, cattle begin using additional energy in order to help keep themselves cool, therefore, heat stress reduces production and efficiency. Once this performance level drops it becomes very difficult to get it back.

Solar radiation is a critical component that can lead to death loss from heat stress. Typically, proportionality more black hided cattle die during heat waves then other hide colors.

Shade can be critical in determining whether cattle die during extreme heat events, especially for black cattle.

Black haired and black hided animals such as the Angus absolutely have to have access to shade in hot weather. These cattle were developed in a cloudy, misty region and do not do well in open, sunny pastures.
At 90 degrees F, Bonsma said the hide temperature of a black haired, black hided animal will be between 113 and 122 degrees F.

Interesting theory. That's like saying black people are hotter than white people. You do know Brangus cattle do very well down south.

 

[Brandonm22]

Interesting theory. That's like saying black people are hotter than white people. You do know Brangus cattle do very well down south.

At risk of getting banned, it HAS been my experience that little red people work a whole lot better in the South than do big Black people. I think that has more to do with culture and how they were raised than it does with genetics; but if we are going to go there...........