Cow Troubles

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simme said:
This appears to be a section of the Arizona law on fence out. It looks to me that the fence out law does NOT apply in an incorporated town or city. The original poster says they live in the city. In fence out states, can the cattle owner really drive the cattle to town and let them graze city hall and the lawns and yards and ball fields in town? Medians and right of ways on the interstates? Is there any incentive for a cattle guy with marginal grazing land to even have a fence? If the cow jumps into the homeowner's pool in the city, is the homeowner responsible for damage to the cow? I know that many states have fence out, but it is a foreign concept for a lot of us in the east.

3-1429. Exemption of incorporated city or town from provisions of article

A. Nothing in this article shall affect any ordinance of an incorporated city or town relating to stock running at large in the incorporated city or town nor shall its provisions apply to any land that is located within an incorporated city or town.

B. Any penalties imposed by a municipal ordinance relating to stock running at large shall not apply to lands that are annexed or incorporated into the city or town for two years after the annexation or incorporation, regardless of whether the lands were previously in a no-fence district or open range.
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Dave said:
I went back and read all of his comments. He lives in a development. He said nothing about being in a city. There are lots of developments in the unincorporated areas of a county.

I believe the interstate is exempt from the open range laws. Here where cows are out on county roads and even state highways all the time, everyone scrambles if a cow gets on to the interstate right of way. I have never been present when cattle were driven through one of the smaller towns in the county. But I have seen enough cow manure on the road to know that it has happened. I have never seen sign of them in the middle of the one city in the county. I have seen them driven down the edge of the city. Certainly within the city limits. There has been two times on Sunday mornings on our way to church we pull off the freeway and meet several hundred cows coming over the freeway over pass. These cows would have came down a main road on the edge of town. Passing right in front of the hospital, 3 big churches, a housing development, a trailer park, several big retail stores that share a large open parking lot, a couple state offices, crossing a main RR line, and a 60 mph highway where the cows would have run the stop sign. They then continued out a 60 mph state highway.
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the interstates are fenced by the state, I have 7-8 miles of interstate that run through the ranch. I have been told not to touch the fence, it is ADOT's responsibility. I am currently fighting with them about 3 mile of it that is more than 60 years old and badly needs replacing. I have lost 3 head this spring/summer because of it. scares the crap out of me because the vast majority of idiots driving out there have no clue how much a bovine weighs and what it will do to their vehicle if they don't slow the hell down.
 
Cows Away said:
I wouldn't call it outrage. It's more frustration.

My Brother in Law drives a school bus. Occasionally, he has to sit for up to 45 minutes, waiting for the cows to move. (He's not allowed to get off the bus and scatter them and they ignore honking and lights.) They are basically a nuisance, not a predator.

As we are not present when they eat them, we only see the damage later, there is little to "enjoy". If we saw them, we'd stop them. We only see the after effects.

No, we don't intentionally feed other critters, neither. We have small dogs which take up plenty of time and resources.

We do enjoy looking at wildlife, except when it's eating our decorations.

We don't want to harm them, just keep them from eating our plants.
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have him try the windshield wipers. may be too high on a bus but it works great in my car. way better than honking or flashing lights.
 
Hippie Rancher said:
the interstates are fenced by the state, I have 7-8 miles of interstate that run through the ranch. I have been told not to touch the fence, it is ADOT's responsibility. I am currently fighting with them about 3 mile of it that is more than 60 years old and badly needs replacing. I have lost 3 head this spring/summer because of it. scares the crap out of me because the vast majority of idiots driving out there have no clue how much a bovine weighs and what it will do to their vehicle if they don't slow the hell down.
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Any chance you could put a fence near the bad section?
 
Hippie Rancher said:
the interstates are fenced by the state, I have 7-8 miles of interstate that run through the ranch. I have been told not to touch the fence, it is ADOT's responsibility. I am currently fighting with them about 3 mile of it that is more than 60 years old and badly needs replacing. I have lost 3 head this spring/summer because of it. scares the crap out of me because the vast majority of idiots driving out there have no clue how much a bovine weighs and what it will do to their vehicle if they don't slow the hell down.
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FYI, my wife hit a black cow late at night on a highway in California (65 MPH) during a new moon. No streetlights as it was out in the country. Hers was the only car in either direction. Killed the cow and, luckily, sent it into the center divide. The cow hit on the drivers side of her CRV. Took out the battery on impact. My wife kept her head about her, even though there was no light and the air bag went off. She coasted accross the lanes to the right side of the road. It was so dark, the Highway Patrol passed her twice before they found her.

She used to drive a Honda Accord. If she had been driving the accord, the cow may have come through the windshield. She says she'll never drive a low car again. (The CRV was totalled.)
 
Cows Away said:
FYI, my wife hit a black cow late at night on a highway in California (65 MPH) during a new moon. No streetlights as it was out in the country. Hers was the only car in either direction. Killed the cow and, luckily, sent it into the center divide. The cow hit on the drivers side of her CRV. Took out the battery on impact. My wife kept her head about her, even though there was no light and the air bag went off. She coasted accross the lanes to the right side of the road. It was so dark, the Highway Patrol passed her twice before they found her.

She used to drive a Honda Accord. If she had been driving the accord, the cow may have come through the windshield. She says she'll never drive a low car again. (The CRV was totalled.)
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A couple years ago I came up on a car cow accident. 5 cows were killed. One a 1200 lb or so cow had both hind quarters tore off just above it's pelvis bones or the base of its spine.

The cow was laying up right chewing it's cud keeping itself propped up right with its front legs just as if if she had laid down. It's intestines had fail out of its back end were its hind quarters had been torn off.

I was amazed at how the cow appeared to not be in any pain. It was dark about 1 a.m. in the morning. Cops hadn't arrived yet. As I was driving through at first I thought the cow that had its hind quarters torn off was intact and that it's hind quarters that was laying about 15 foot from it was another cow or big calf. But when we got close enough to see what happened. My wife wanted me to shoot the cow and put it out of its misery. I told her the cops could do that when they got there.

The car that hit the cows was a mid sized sports car of some kind. Air bag had deployed. Driver was standing beside the car talking on his cell phone. Car didn't look to be too bad damaged.

That happened in Fort Smith Arkansas. Cattle owners are responsible for damage's when cattle get on public roads. What few cow/car accidents I know of the owners don't come forward to claim the cows.
 
504RP said:
A couple years ago I came up on a car cow accident. 5 cows were killed. One a 1200 lb or so cow had both hind quarters tore off just above it's pelvis bones or the base of its spine.

The cow was laying up right chewing it's cud keeping itself propped up right with its front legs just as if if she had laid down. It's intestines had fail out of its back end were its hind quarters had been torn off.

I was amazed at how the cow appeared to not be in any pain. It was dark about 1 a.m. in the morning. Cops hadn't arrived yet. As I was driving through at first I thought the cow that had its hind quarters torn off was intact and that it's hind quarters that was laying about 15 foot from it was another cow or big calf. But when we got close enough to see what happened. My wife wanted me to shoot the cow and put it out of its misery. I told her the cops could do that when they got there.

The car that hit the cows was a mid sized sports car of some kind. Air bag had deployed. Driver was standing beside the car talking on his cell phone. Car didn't look to be too bad damaged.

That happened in Fort Smith Arkansas. Cattle owners are responsible for damage's when cattle get on public roads. What few cow/car accidents I know of the owners don't come forward to claim the cows.
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I hope the cow had the spine severed, or similar, and so was in no pain. Sad story.
 
Lee VanRoss said:
It is terrible to realize one needs to know what is beyond the target before pulling the trigger after gun goes off and you are standing there
facing the consequence of your actions. You cannot undo a do but with the right connections one can set the wheels in motion to change
the current circumstance. Don't look for (right minded people in your own opinion). That will keep you where you are. You are receiving
some good advice and comments on these pages. Travlr was spot on when inquired about you considering any options other than what you
arrived with. When you go out the door in the morning go with a come hell or high water I'm going to fix this attitude. Do that for a little
while and look behind you and you will have people following you. The cow situation will get resolved one way or another and there will be
another dragon to slay. How you face and resolve this will determine whether you have what it takes to stay on the horse (Arizona) or
set in the stands. (California) "Whether you think you can or whether you think you can't, you are probably right" Henry Ford
I wish you well,,
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Thank you. I have received many good suggestions to try. When my wife gets back, we'll discuss them.

I retired and moved to Arizona after years of research and of driving through the state (and Texas) and staying a few nights in different areas. If I had my way, we'd be living in Show Low. But, alas, I had to compromise and so we are in Kingman. I will never go back to California, unless things change drastically there. Probably, not even then.
 
Arizona sounds like a place that respects and accommodates cattle. My cattle are fenced in, but some pastures butt against a road. Some individuals yell and/or throw **** at cattle when driving past. Some people walk along the road with their dog(s). Dogs bark and disturb the cattle. Apparently some individuals find amusement in such things.
 
moses388 said:
Arizona sounds like a place that respects and accommodates cattle. My cattle are fenced in, but some pastures butt against a road. Some individuals yell and/or throw **** at cattle when driving past. Some people walk along the road with their dog(s). Dogs bark and disturb the cattle. Apparently some individuals find amusement in such things.
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Not sure how to stop dogs, but throwing things should come with a penalty.

People who are cruel to animals are usually cruel to people, as well. Many sociopaths started with animals before hurting / killing people. I think we should treat animal cruelty seriously. Mandatory psychoanalysis at the least.
 
Upon reflection, the cows may not be as much of a problem as you think. If you stated where you lived in California I did not see it,
nor do I want to. What did standout is the address of where you are as opposed to the address of where you would choose.
Without knowing where you lived in California I selected L A as that is the largest choice. Some interesting facts:
Distance from Kingman to LA 318 miles 5+ hour drive+
Distance from Show Low to LA 548 miles 8 hr 45 min drive
Distance from Kingman to Las Vegas 107 miles 1 hr 40 min + or - drive
Distance from Kingman to Show Low ( a little over 4 hours)

It would seem Kingman will allow you to maintain contact with your preretirement life which provides physical but not emotional distance,
Very few of us can thrive (at the end of the trail) which may be the case with Show Low. (Not sure if I have been on that stretch of road but
I may have to swing by and have a look-see) Just a different perspective.....
 
Lee VanRoss said:
Upon reflection, the cows may not be as much of a problem as you think. If you stated where you lived in California I did not see it,
nor do I want to. What did standout is the address of where you are as opposed to the address of where you would choose.
Without knowing where you lived in California I selected L A as that is the largest choice. Some interesting facts:
Distance from Kingman to LA 318 miles 5+ hour drive+
Distance from Show Low to LA 548 miles 8 hr 45 min drive
Distance from Kingman to Las Vegas 107 miles 1 hr 40 min + or - drive
Distance from Kingman to Show Low ( a little over 4 hours)

It would seem Kingman will allow you to maintain contact with your preretirement life which provides physical but not emotional distance,
Very few of us can thrive (at the end of the trail) which may be the case with Show Low. (Not sure if I have been on that stretch of road but
I may have to swing by and have a look-see) Just a different perspective.....
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Not sure what you're getting at.

Amongst other things, my wife wanted to be within 2 hours of a major air port.

We were in central California.

We have family from San Francisco to Indianapolis to Orlando.
 
You will have a nice quiet place to come home to after the round up. Enjoy the day!
 
greybeard said:
The STATE definitely is. Most counties are not.




Open Range vs. Closed Range
Texas is an open-range state, tracing its roots back to the trail drives and cattle barons of the 1800s. Open range means exactly that—livestock owners are not required to fence in their livestock to prevent them from roaming at large. The Texas Supreme Court supported the open-range policy more than a century ago when it stated, "if the cattle of one person wander upon the [unenclosed] lands of another…they are not trespassers, and the owner is not liable for any damage that they may inflict." 1 As recently as 1999, the Texas Supreme Court upheld this concept, holding that "t is the right of every owner of domestic animals in this state…to allow them to run at large." 2 While the common law of open range is still in effect, there are two exceptions: 1) the passage of local, county-based ordinances (stock laws), and 2) the development of U.S. and state highways, that have changed large portions of the state from open range to closed range.


https://agfax.com/2017/10/02/texas-ag-law-fannin-county-closed-range-or-open-range/

And by State statute, there are still a number of Texas counties that may never hold a county election to go "closed range". Andrews, Coke, Culberson, Hardin, Hemphill, Hudspeth, Jasper, Jefferson, Kenedy, Kinney, LaSalle, Loving, Motley, Newton, Presidio, Roberts, Schleicher, Terry, Tyler, Upton, Wharton, or Yoakum
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Huh. Look at that. I think I'll go do some more research as to open range versus fence in / out laws. Thank you.
 
Cows Away said:
Not sure how to stop dogs, but throwing things should come with a penalty.

People who are cruel to animals are usually cruel to people, as well. Many sociopaths started with animals before hurting / killing people. I think we should treat animal cruelty seriously. Mandatory psychoanalysis at the least.
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(eyeroll)

(And now we get the Disneyesque worldview)

Associating a guy throwing a rock or stick at a cow to get it out of the road... with sociopaths... is a little overkill, IMO. It appears that by your criteria and sensibilities most of the people on this forum would need "mandatory psychoanalysis"... just in normal handling of their cattle. I've always trained my cattle to come when they are called and consider herding an unnecessary stress... but there is always some kind of circumstance where an animal needs to go where it doesn't want to go.

How much direct experience have you had with cattle... I don't think that was mentioned.
 
Travlr said:
(eyeroll)

(And now we get the Disneyesque worldview)

Associating a guy throwing a rock or stick at a cow to get it out of the road... with sociopaths... is a little overkill, IMO. It appears that by your criteria and sensibilities most of the people on this forum would need "mandatory psychoanalysis"... just in normal handling of their cattle. I've always trained my cattle to come when they are called and consider herding an unnecessary stress... but there is always some kind of circumstance where an animal needs to go where it doesn't want to go.

How much direct experience have you had with cattle... I don't think that was mentioned.
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You and I have read this differently.

I was of the understanding that things were being thrown and yelled at fenced in animals who were minding their own business, not escapees.

I agree that physical means are often needed to get animals "where they belong". I don't have a problem slapping a horse, for example; but, I totally disagree with cruelty for personal satisfaction.

And, that is what I was meaning when I called for psychoanalysis. If you look into it, you'll usually find that those who harm/kill people usually started on animals.
 
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Cows Away said:
You and I have read this differently.

I was of the understanding that things were being thrown and yelled at fenced in animals who were minding their own business, not escapees.

I agree that physical means are often needed to get animals "where they belong". I don't have a problem slapping a horse, for example; but, I totally disagree with cruelty for personal satisfaction.

And, that is what I was meaning when I called for psychoanalysis. If you look into it, you'll usually find that those who harm/kill people usually started on animals.
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I read you loud and clear, now. You're going to find that "Californian" is a word worse than the F bomb to a lot of people in ag, people will probably keep being apprehensive until they get to know you.
 
50/50Farms said:
I read you loud and clear, now. You're going to find that "Californian" is a word worse than the F bomb to a lot of people in ag, people will probably keep being apprehensive until they get to know you.
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I come from the San Joaquin Valley. Home to many farmers.

We also have many rodeos in the area. Ken Curtis (Festus from Gunsmoke) is celebrated in many of our towns, as he came from here.

One of my coworkers was upset because a horse ran into her stopped car and broke the side view mirror off of it. I used to tease her about it every once in a while. "Run into any horses lately?"

My grandmother used to sew her own pigs when (after) they fought.

We'd go out in the yard and catch a chicken for dinner (when we were told to).

Not everyone from California lives in the big cities. There's lots of ag land around.

The "wierdness" is mostly confined to the big cities.
 

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