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Cow Hocked?

SFFarms

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These are pictures of one of my yearling angus heifer calves. She is a Mytty In Focus daughter and is about 10 months old. I think she is cow hocked this is one of my first cows i have to ever have it or does she? She seems only too stand like that sometimes and not always. I really dont wanna give her away, i like to A.I. her this spring. So my question is? What can i do to avoid passing it on to her offspring? Could i use a bull with excellent feet pattern/ Structure to prevent it?

Im new at posting pictures so maybe it will work. :? :D






Thanks,

SFF
 

dun

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The eaisiest way t see cow hocks are straight from the rear
 

DOC HARRIS

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dun is correct. The best way to ascertain if an individual is cow-hocked is to observe it from DIRECTLY behind.

This calf is absolutely cow-hocked - no question. The best way to prevent her passing that condition on to her progeny is to feed her out and slaughter her! Sounds tough, but she is SO cow-hocked the chances of her passing that condition on to her progeny are almost set in stone! It would take genetics so dominant in counter-acting that condition that you wouldn't want it in mating other cows not so accursed with the trait.

Ship her.

DOC HARRIS
 

cypressfarms

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SFFarms":12z5ncyp said:
does she?
Yep, like dun said, the best way to tell is to look straight from behind with the cow facing away from you. If she's cow hocked, the toes will point outward, although the body's pointing straight. In the one's I've seen, it gets worse with age.

SFFarms":12z5ncyp said:
She seems only too stand like that sometimes and not always. I really dont wanna give her away, i like to A.I. her this spring. So my question is? What can i do to avoid passing it on to her offspring?
Unfortunately you can't. It's in her genetics, and best case scenario your rolling the dice with the odds against you.

SFFarms":12z5ncyp said:
Could i use a bull with excellent feet pattern/ Structure to prevent it?
Yes you could, and it may produce a normal looking calf. But why would you? This is a genetic/conformation fault. Even if she gave birth to a "normal" calf, it would still carry (recessively) the fault, and it would surface again. Maybe in a bull calf that someone bought to be a herd sire. Why not take the chance to improve your herd, and everyone else's by taking this heifer out of the breeding pool. Is she that valuable?
 

chippie

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It may be the angle of the picture, but her front legs aren't that good either. She appears to be back at the knee (calf kneed). It's disappointing when you have hopes for a calf and it doesn't meet your expectations.
 

SFFarms

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Thanks guys, it's what i expected. I hate to cull her but im trying to build a reputable program for the future and i dont need the worrys of her calves. I always wonder what caused this because her dam is not and she didnt show any signs until like last month.

Thanks,

SFF
 

RD-Sam

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There is something seriously wrong going on there. She looks like she is about to trip over her own feet in that one picture. If she developed the condition it may be related to nutrition. Could be she has hip or patella problems too. I wouldn't breed her if she was mine.
 

LoveMoo11

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Has she ever been in a stancion where she is standing over a gutter/ditch, etc? I have seen dairy cows develop cow hocks as a result...or could just be genetics.
 

DOC HARRIS

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LoveMoo11":3gx9sqhe said:
Has she ever been in a stancion where she is standing over a gutter/ditch, etc? I have seen dairy cows develop cow hocks as a result...or could just be genetics.
LoveMoo11-

...this IS Genetics!

DOC HARRIS
 

angus9259

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Do feet / structural problems really fall under the technical definition of recessive genetic traits since there are varying degrees of cow hockedness?
 

DOC HARRIS

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angus9259":m3tyxhn7 said:
Do feet / structural problems really fall under the technical definition of recessive genetic traits since there are varying degrees of cow hockedness?

I will do what I tell other people NOT to do - that is, answer a question by asking another question!
Does the size of a cows switch, or the dark streaks in rear hooves, or the exact location of a small white spot just between the front legs of an Angus bull the result of a RECESSIVE gene?? Are any of those three characteristics as drastic a structural "flaw" as ANY varying degree of cow hockedness?

A "stifled" bull is worthless as a breeding bull. Does it make any difference is he is "..a 'little bit' stifled, or a 'BIG bit' stifled? He is still stifled. And if a cow is a 'little bit' cow-hocked, or a 'big bit' cow-hocked, she is still cow-hocked and that is a negative structural , or functional, trait, and not conducive to carrying on in a breeding herd.

And to answer your question about 'recessive genetic traits', who is to say that they are RECESSIVE?? The same argument may be made regarding the current "Curly Calf Syndrome", which MUST be understood in order to be managed satisfactorily. And "Managed" is the operative word here!

DOC HARRIS
 

angus9259

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DOC HARRIS":67w4bsyb said:
angus9259":67w4bsyb said:
Do feet / structural problems really fall under the technical definition of recessive genetic traits since there are varying degrees of cow hockedness?

I will do what I tell other people NOT to do - that is, answer a question by asking another question!
Does the size of a cows switch, or the dark streaks in rear hooves, or the exact location of a small white spot just between the front legs of an Angus bull the result of a RECESSIVE gene?? Are any of those three characteristics as drastic a structural "flaw" as ANY varying degree of cow hockedness?

A "stifled" bull is worthless as a breeding bull. Does it make any difference is he is "..a 'little bit' stifled, or a 'BIG bit' stifled? He is still stifled. And if a cow is a 'little bit' cow-hocked, or a 'big bit' cow-hocked, she is still cow-hocked and that is a negative structural , or functional, trait, and not conducive to carrying on in a breeding herd.

And to answer your question about 'recessive genetic traits', who is to say that they are RECESSIVE?? The same argument may be made regarding the current "Curly Calf Syndrome", which MUST be understood in order to be managed satisfactorily. And "Managed" is the operative word here!

DOC HARRIS

I'm not arguing whether or not the heifer should be culled, but you can't manage something if you don't know how it occurs. I had an AI heifer that was toed out in the front this year - she was culled but her dam and sire have fine feet and the bull calf from the same dam last year had fine feet. How did this heifer end up toed out? Fluke? Was it the AI stud I used this year vs last even though the studs feet were fine? OR does this mean the dam carries a recessive trait for "toed outedness" and should be culled as well to prevent further spread of the structure condition. You can't manage something if you don't know what causes it.

So - back to my question which, as you said - hasn't been answered - what causes it so it can be managed?
 

KNERSIE

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angus9259":1j4oh5ft said:
DOC HARRIS":1j4oh5ft said:
angus9259":1j4oh5ft said:
Do feet / structural problems really fall under the technical definition of recessive genetic traits since there are varying degrees of cow hockedness?

I will do what I tell other people NOT to do - that is, answer a question by asking another question!
Does the size of a cows switch, or the dark streaks in rear hooves, or the exact location of a small white spot just between the front legs of an Angus bull the result of a RECESSIVE gene?? Are any of those three characteristics as drastic a structural "flaw" as ANY varying degree of cow hockedness?

A "stifled" bull is worthless as a breeding bull. Does it make any difference is he is "..a 'little bit' stifled, or a 'BIG bit' stifled? He is still stifled. And if a cow is a 'little bit' cow-hocked, or a 'big bit' cow-hocked, she is still cow-hocked and that is a negative structural , or functional, trait, and not conducive to carrying on in a breeding herd.

And to answer your question about 'recessive genetic traits', who is to say that they are RECESSIVE?? The same argument may be made regarding the current "Curly Calf Syndrome", which MUST be understood in order to be managed satisfactorily. And "Managed" is the operative word here!

DOC HARRIS

I'm not arguing whether or not the heifer should be culled, but you can't manage something if you don't know how it occurs. I had an AI heifer that was toed out in the front this year - she was culled but her dam and sire have fine feet and the bull calf from the same dam last year had fine feet. How did this heifer end up toed out? Fluke? Was it the AI stud I used this year vs last even though the studs feet were fine? OR does this mean the dam carries a recessive trait for "toed outedness" and should be culled as well to prevent further spread of the structure condition. You can't manage something if you don't know what causes it.

So - back to my question which, as you said - hasn't been answered - what causes it so it can be managed?

I don't know if a trait like cow hocks is as simple as a simple Mendellian trait where its simply a case of dominant and recessive genes. From my experience certain sires are very proned to sire cow hocks, I used one just recently. Based on the frequency of the varying degrees of cow-hockedness I suspect that the inheritance is governed by a multitude of genes that all have a quantitative effect.

Badlands is the genetic expert on this forum, send him a pm maybe he can shed more light on this for us.
 

Jovid

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I don't think it matters whether it is a recessive or dominate gene trait. What does matter is if a trait (good or bad) shows up then there is a good possibility that that trait will be passed on down the road.

If you don't care whether or not your cattle are cow hocked then continue to breed them and pass that trait on.
 

DOC HARRIS

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Being a Chiropractor, I feel that I must include one last comment regarding this "Cow-Hocked" syndrome, or condition. Then I think it is time to go to something that is more interesting.

Because the condition is 'named' in relationship to what it causes the individual to "look" like, (the hocks closing in toward each other - "cow-hocked"), it seems that everyone is mentally attributing the 'cause' of the condition to the hocks. NOT NECESSARILY!" Diagnosing the malady from a structural and physiological aspect, the attitude of the feet, legs, and hips is determined by the physiological relationship of the Pelvis (Sacrum, two illia, and 5th Lumbar vertebra,) and how the correct, or incorrect, positioning of those structures will dictate the positioning of the legs and feet and all anatomical body members concommitant with each other. In other words, if the articulation between the 5th lumbar vertebra and the sacrum is mal-positioned, the spine can be postioned so that the illia (hips) will flare either in or out, as the case may be. If the hips flare inward, the hocks move toward each other (cow-hocked). If the hips flare outward, the hocks can move away from each other. The name indicates only what the visual appearance of the relationship of the hocks indicate.

Actually, the entire subject is moot at this point. The hocks are what they are, whether it is a Functional flaw, or a physiological manifestation resulting in a disagreeable phenotypical appearance. In either case, an exaggerated display of "Cow-Hockedness" is not desirable, for whatever collection of reasons one may choose to employ in their seedstock selection processes.

'Nuff said.

DOC HARRIS
 

angus9259

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KMacGinley":3tw2d5cx said:
Who are you talking to? The guy said he was going to cull her and hasn't replied since.

Jovid":3tw2d5cx said:
I don't think it matters whether it is a recessive or dominate gene trait. What does matter is if a trait (good or bad) shows up then there is a good possibility that that trait will be passed on down the road.

If you don't care whether or not your cattle are cow hocked then continue to breed them and pass that trait on.


If it's not genetic why cull her? If it is, you should cull the animals that produced her even if they had good feet if one is concerned about eliminating it from the breed. The only way to make a determination about FURTHER culling is to understand its origin. If it's recessive, you could breed her to a bull with good feet . . . etc . . . as DOC said re: curly calf . . . no need to cull them all . . . just manage the situation. With structural problems it seems we just cull them all. Just wondering if that's the best practice. Structural problems take a MUCH MUCH MUCH greater toll on the cattle industry than curly calf ever has or will. Seems like a valid thing to inquire about. Perhaps not.
 

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