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J+ Cattle
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For those that are interested here are the links to download the Cowboss program and the users manual
Cow/Calf Weaning Weight Ratios
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J+ Cattle
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If the calves are terminal and you're afraid of having small framed calves you could use a larger framed bull
Dave
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The vast majority of cows here tend toward larger frame size. Not the real big cows. But the distances they have to travel on steep ground a longer legged cow has advantages.
When this first came up I went and did a little market research. So the sale I looked up doesn't report in categories like 500-600 pound steers. It is what actual groups sold for. The report will be under a label such as Medium - Large #1 & 2. Then it is X number of calves, weighing A to B average weight. Price A to B and the average price.
The Medium to Large is frame size. Medium to Small (again frame size) sold for 40 cents less that the Medium to Large calves of the same weight. I simply don't need any small framed cows.
When this first came up I went and did a little market research. So the sale I looked up doesn't report in categories like 500-600 pound steers. It is what actual groups sold for. The report will be under a label such as Medium - Large #1 & 2. Then it is X number of calves, weighing A to B average weight. Price A to B and the average price.
The Medium to Large is frame size. Medium to Small (again frame size) sold for 40 cents less that the Medium to Large calves of the same weight. I simply don't need any small framed cows.
GoWyo
Well-known member
Medium to small is not where you want to be in the Wyoming or Nebraska markets either. Feeders like them framed up, green and ready to gain. The medium to small frame calves need to be roughed through the winter and go to grass the following spring to get framed up and ready to feed.
That could be a slippery slope. Let's say you had a cow that was an easy keeper and weighed #1300, weaned #600 calf. Another cow is one that draws down to #1200 and also weaned a #600 calf. Which is the better cow?
Funny story about collecting data on things. I use to fo it a lot in o&g. It was a very useful tool when used correctly.
When I was working in a field we started getting a big push to go to these fancy automated VFD pump controllers. I was for the VFDs but not for the same reason as others. Most all controllers have a manual setting or one that will auto adjust based on the parameters. I've always been against the auto adjust because you show up the next day and it's way out of whack and it's hard to trouble shoot. I believe a human who has logged hours seeing the problem should make the adjustments.
Long story short we had a pumping unit that kept shutting off at random times. The VFD company talked our bosses in to running it in the auto setting with a pump off setting where it is supposed to shut off with no fluid. Basically it looked at amps on the motor because the load got significantly less with out fluid to pump.
We ended up with my boss, several gaugers, an engineer, the controller company owner, their sales person, and tech all on this location. I had been watching the trending on the computer. When I put the vfd data next to our tank data it didnt match up. It showed the pump down but the well still making fluid for different amounts of time after the pump shut off. One day I was right close when it did it so I whipped in and watched the data as I watched the well with my eyes. Our engineer insisted on getting them out because basically it was them against me. They said we were pumping off, I said we were not. They scheduled for all us to be on location watching it one day. We are getting the big pitch from the controller owner and it does it right there in front of every one. He pulls the data up for the time leading up to it blah blah blah. Tells us how the well is weak and its pumping off. I question a few things trying to give him a last chance to open up to the idea it could be some thing else... which agitates him. Finally I tell him walk over here to the well with me. He does not want to get out of his truck hardly away from his computer but dies it. My boss is eyeing me hard because he can see that smart butt look in my eye. I tell that owner to put his hand on the pipe and tell me if that sounds and feels like a well that is pumped off.
The well is free flowing through the pump which shows very similar parameters to pumping off because the amps drop low on both scenarios. We were pumping enough fluid off for the well to kick and flow which is why I kept showing production on the tank even though the pump was off.
Basically what I am saying is you can get similar data from some thing both good and bad. Every pump, tank, comp, etc we had, had a computer hooked up that would trend data for that equipment. I saw this same scenario happen more than once.
You can end up with similar scenarios in cattle in my opinion. I like having my spreadsheets on them but I usually flag cows with questionable parameters and write them in my tally book. From there I can monitor the cow with my eyes and see if there are other factors to take in to consideration. I think it also helps to point out things that may visually be a clue on bad performance.
Stocker Steve
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No, you win win.
Successful commodity producers know the difference between cow maker and terminal bulls.
Stocker Steve
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I had a lot practice this summer sorting cows. In order we sold:
1) Big old cows
2) Moderate old cows
3) Any cows that did not calve in 40 days
4) Any cows with a poor udder or teat
5) Biggest yearling heifers
6) Any cows with small calves
7) Any cows with poor hair coats or confirmation
Only scale we used was at the sales barn.
First group weighed 1595#.
Last group weighed 1245#.
Remaining calves are uniform.
Next year will be interesting.
FungusProudKY31
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Not in the SE USA.
Lee VanRoss
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I will not name them in this forum for obvious reasons but I know of several purebred herd managers who stress and advertise a policy of maintaining a herd of moderate weight brood cows. From my own experience the longevity factors with a large cow in that they will develop
skeletal (sp) maladies at a higher rate so the number of productive years fall off with the larger animal.
Large, high maintenance, short production life cows are a gateway to another occupation which may not necessarily be a bad thing
for some. Good Luck to either viewpoint!
skeletal (sp) maladies at a higher rate so the number of productive years fall off with the larger animal.
Large, high maintenance, short production life cows are a gateway to another occupation which may not necessarily be a bad thing
for some. Good Luck to either viewpoint!
Not yet, but would like to start in the future. I have been eyeing a basic Tru-Test S3.
Yes, the weight would be captured when cattle are being worked anyway. I would like to have a calf weight on record just for information sake. When reviewing herd files it would be considered, but not the only factor.
Would also use a scale to check weight on any extra large feeder calves. For me, I don't think it is worth it to keep food in front of 800+ pound feeder calves. They need to be sold between 600-800 pounds.
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J+ Cattle
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Cow sizes tend to grow slowly over time and I think people have cows that are larger than they think. You didn't use the scale for the evaluation but you seem to have come to the same outcome with size because the biggest cows were first on the list, but you also used age and conformation as part of the culling decision as it should be. It's hard cutting back the herd so much in a drought year but next year your calf crop will be better for it.
J+ Cattle
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J+ Cattle
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This year I sold one of my most productive cows due to her age and I didn't want to take her through another winter. She had always raised a good sized calf and never missed calving on time. When I sold her in August she had a 4 month old calf that weighed 405 lbs and she weighed 1110 lbs. Her production was starting to fall off but that was her 16th calf. She was the cow that has been in my avatar and her calf in front of her. At least I still have some of her daughters in my herd.
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J+ Cattle
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Moses if you're handy with a welder and can build the platform the animals stand on you can buy a kit from Amazon for less than $200, search "livestock scale kit". It has all of the electronics and wiring and assembly is pretty easy, building the platform is the most work. A word of caution is don't do any welding with any of the electronics attached. Build the platform and then the load cells bolt in place afterwards.
bird dog
Well-known member
One of the problems I have is my retained heifers mature to big. I try to do the right things like keeping the ones that are from early calving medium weight cows that have good udders and are very docile. My Angus bull is actually considered to have maternal qualities but his heifers and the the heifers from the other bulls I have had mature out at 1500 plus lbs while their dams weigh 1200. The young cows turn out like I want, they are just to darn big for my forage base.
Its frustrating to see a three year old cow with her second calf developing just like you want but she continues to grow and when she is five she's pushing 1600.
Its frustrating to see a three year old cow with her second calf developing just like you want but she continues to grow and when she is five she's pushing 1600.
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J+ Cattle
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I checked the MW EPD for the top 10 Angus sires by number of registration in 2020. The 10 bulls averaged +71.4 lbs for MW, the highest was +123 and the lowest was -9. Tex Playbook 5437 was the only one in the top 10 with a negative MW, the next lowest MW was +41 lbs.
bird dog
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Interesting. Thanks for posting that. That explains a lot of it. I have no idea what my bulls MW EPD is or was.
Its a compounding problem. Your replacement is a 100 lbs heavier than the dam. The replacement's daughter is another 100 lbs heavier and so forth and so.
I may have to breed to a Corriente to get things back to where I want them.
Its a compounding problem. Your replacement is a 100 lbs heavier than the dam. The replacement's daughter is another 100 lbs heavier and so forth and so.
I may have to breed to a Corriente to get things back to where I want them.
Stocker Steve
Well-known member
Obviously you have a terminal Angus bull. "Maternal qualities" can mean anything. Might have too much milk or...
Neighbor has shiny black 1600# registered cows bred AI for several generations, and wintered on a corn silage mix. He wanted to sell me a bull calf. I asked if the calf was from a terminal or maternal breeding - - he said he breeds for both. Pass.
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J+ Cattle
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Maybe Warren is onto something!!!Interesting. Thanks for posting that. That explains a lot of it. I have no idea what my bulls MW EPD is or was.
Its a compounding problem. Your replacement is a 100 lbs heavier than the dam. The replacement's daughter is another 100 lbs heavier and so forth and so.
I may have to breed to a Corriente to get things back to where I want them.
OP
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J+ Cattle
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If you had 50 head of 1600 lb. cows, theoretically you could run 64 head of 1250 lb. cows on the same feed resource. Since the price per lb. of calves decreases as they get larger you should be making more money on 64 lighter calves even though the total lbs weaned is the same in both cases.
