Cow/Calf Weaning Weight Ratios

[Dave]

If you had 50 head of 1600 lb. cows, theoretically you could run 64 head of 1250 lb. cows on the same feed resource. Since the price per lb. of calves decreases as they get larger you should be making more money on 64 lighter calves even though the total lbs weaned is the same in both cases.

In theory. And actually a theory which has been proven wrong on a number of occasions. It is not a straight pound for pound increase or reduction. These ideas have been floated around a bunch of times. It varies from year to year. Right now 500 pound steers are worth $850-900. 800 pound steers are $1,200. Total dollars heavies here are worth more than the lights. That is why there is money in stockers if you have winter feed.

 

[J+ Cattle]

This is pretty tough country on cows. Hiking up and down the hills and walking a mile or more to water keeps cows on the thrifty side. Calves come out of the hills hard not fleshy. Most cows here run about 1,200. Put them on flat green pasture they would weigh 1,300 in a hurry. Neighbor sold two pot loads of steer calves. They based the weight at 575. So a little under 50%. But that is the top end of the steers. Heifers will be lighter and they will have 100 or so steers that don't make that top end.

Dave the purpose of weighing the cows and calves is to see which cows are under performing the herd average, not to change the type of cows you have or to change your management style, but to improve the average of the herd. You said that the top end of the steers is 575 but there's 100 or so steers that don't make the top end. What if you could have more steers in the top end and say only 50 head that didn't make the top cut? I think that would be worth some coin. If all of your cows are the same size then maybe all you need to look at is the calf's weaning weight and cull some cows that have the lowest weaning weights for the same contemporary grouping. My original post was to see how many people track this type of information and use it for culling decisions. From your earlier post it seems that you make a visual appraisal of the calves and if a cow has a calf in the dink pen two times she gets culled. It's the same principle but it's executed in a different manner.

 

[J+ Cattle]

That could be a slippery slope. Let's say you had a cow that was an easy keeper and weighed #1300, weaned #600 calf. Another cow is one that draws down to #1200 and also weaned a #600 calf. Which is the better cow?

Funny story about collecting data on things. I use to fo it a lot in o&g. It was a very useful tool when used correctly.

When I was working in a field we started getting a big push to go to these fancy automated VFD pump controllers. I was for the VFDs but not for the same reason as others. Most all controllers have a manual setting or one that will auto adjust based on the parameters. I've always been against the auto adjust because you show up the next day and it's way out of whack and it's hard to trouble shoot. I believe a human who has logged hours seeing the problem should make the adjustments.

Long story short we had a pumping unit that kept shutting off at random times. The VFD company talked our bosses in to running it in the auto setting with a pump off setting where it is supposed to shut off with no fluid. Basically it looked at amps on the motor because the load got significantly less with out fluid to pump.

We ended up with my boss, several gaugers, an engineer, the controller company owner, their sales person, and tech all on this location. I had been watching the trending on the computer. When I put the vfd data next to our tank data it didnt match up. It showed the pump down but the well still making fluid for different amounts of time after the pump shut off. One day I was right close when it did it so I whipped in and watched the data as I watched the well with my eyes. Our engineer insisted on getting them out because basically it was them against me. They said we were pumping off, I said we were not. They scheduled for all us to be on location watching it one day. We are getting the big pitch from the controller owner and it does it right there in front of every one. He pulls the data up for the time leading up to it blah blah blah. Tells us how the well is weak and its pumping off. I question a few things trying to give him a last chance to open up to the idea it could be some thing else... which agitates him. Finally I tell him walk over here to the well with me. He does not want to get out of his truck hardly away from his computer but dies it. My boss is eyeing me hard because he can see that smart butt look in my eye. I tell that owner to put his hand on the pipe and tell me if that sounds and feels like a well that is pumped off.

The well is free flowing through the pump which shows very similar parameters to pumping off because the amps drop low on both scenarios. We were pumping enough fluid off for the well to kick and flow which is why I kept showing production on the tank even though the pump was off.

Basically what I am saying is you can get similar data from some thing both good and bad. Every pump, tank, comp, etc we had, had a computer hooked up that would trend data for that equipment. I saw this same scenario happen more than once.

You can end up with similar scenarios in cattle in my opinion. I like having my spreadsheets on them but I usually flag cows with questionable parameters and write them in my tally book. From there I can monitor the cow with my eyes and see if there are other factors to take in to consideration. I think it also helps to point out things that may visually be a clue on bad performance.

Brute was the VFD made by a company with a 3 letter name using the first two letters of the alphabet? If so, they probably could tell you they had a dozen patents on the auto adjust feature that didn't work.

 

[simme]

Brute was the VFD made by a company with a 3 letter name using the first two letters of the alphabet? If so, they probably could tell you they had a dozen patents on the auto adjust feature that didn't work.

ABB makes good stuff. A successful application requires that the designer/supplier have detailed knowledge of BOTH the operating process AND the controls equipment. Many times one or the other is missing and the end user has to make do with what was installed. Missing benefits that should have been there if both aspects were understood. Variable speed pump controls offer many benefits over fixed speed (often oversized) pumps. ABB, Rockwell, Siemens - take your pick. Rockwell if you want American.

 

[Stocker Steve]

In theory. And actually a theory which has been proven wrong on a number of occasions. It is not a straight pound for pound increase or reduction. These ideas have been floated around a bunch of times. It varies from year to year. Right now 500 pound steers are worth $850-900. 800 pound steers are $1,200. Total dollars heavies here are worth more than the lights. That is why there is money in stockers if you have winter feed.

Don't think too many are weaning 800# feeders.

Are your saying in some times in some markets heavy feeders (say 650#) receive a price premium over light feeder (say 500#) ?

 

[Dave]

Don't think too many are weaning 800# feeders.

Are your saying in some times in some markets heavy feeders (say 650#) receive a price premium over light feeder (say 500#) ?

I didn't mean 800 pound weaners. But that the difference between light cattle and heavier ones is not huge at this point. There are times when light calves are worth nearly the same dollars as heavier ones. That is not true now. And I was either too busy or too lazy to look up actual recent sale numbers.

 

[Dave]

Dave the purpose of weighing the cows and calves is to see which cows are under performing the herd average, not to change the type of cows you have or to change your management style, but to improve the average of the herd. You said that the top end of the steers is 575 but there's 100 or so steers that don't make the top end. What if you could have more steers in the top end and say only 50 head that didn't make the top cut? I think that would be worth some coin. If all of your cows are the same size then maybe all you need to look at is the calf's weaning weight and cull some cows that have the lowest weaning weights for the same contemporary grouping. My original post was to see how many people track this type of information and use it for culling decisions. From your earlier post it seems that you make a visual appraisal of the calves and if a cow has a calf in the dink pen two times she gets culled. It's the same principle but it's executed in a different manner.

That top cut was 175 calves. If there was 100 (my guess, I watched them load these) that didn't make the cut that makes 275 steers. An equal number of heifers makes 550 life calves after birth, 6 months in rough predator filled range and 45 day wean. A 45 to 60 day calving period. As I said I was there when they loaded the ones who didn't make the cut. The majority were over 500 pounds. They were about as even as can be made. Improving on how they operate would take a significant increase in labor. These people work dawn to dark 7 days a week. I don't think they are interested in any increase in work load.

 

[Brute 23]

Brute was the VFD made by a company with a 3 letter name using the first two letters of the alphabet? If so, they probably could tell you they had a dozen patents on the auto adjust feature that didn't work.

Naw. They have a vfd that like generated/ stored power as the weights came down and then used it on the lift side. It was pretty neat. We actually saw some saving on the electric bill. The storage also helped clean up the electricity coming in. We had spikes and dips that would come through and knock down all kinds of equipment. Theirs would stay going when others wouldnt.

 

[Brute 23]

ABB makes good stuff. A successful application requires that the designer/supplier have detailed knowledge of BOTH the operating process AND the controls equipment. Many times one or the other is missing and the end user has to make do with what was installed. Missing benefits that should have been there if both aspects were understood. Variable speed pump controls offer many benefits over fixed speed (often oversized) pumps. ABB, Rockwell, Siemens - take your pick. Rockwell if you want American.

You are exactly right.

We had abb, Rockwell and Siemens coms measurement equipment I believe. Cant remember having their vfds but some of the equipment were rentals so I'm not sure what they used.

 

[Dave]

So a those calves that weighed 575. Lets say it weighed 75 pounds at birth. That leaves 500 pounds of gained weight. A calf born February 1 and shipped the end of October is 270 days old. 500 divided by 270 is 1.85 pounds a day. The calf born 40 days later who gains at the same rate is 74 pound lighter.

 

[J+ Cattle]

CowBoss looks at the actual weaning weight and the age in days to give you an adjusted 205 day weaning weight to compensate for those that were born earlier or later. If you know which bull sired which calves it will also show you a comparison of how each bull's calves performed. Maybe it's the fault of the bulls used that 100 calves didn't make the top cut.

you can't improve what you do not measure - Search

www.bing.com

 

[wbvs58]

One of the offshoots of our compulsory EID is that it makes collecting data a lot easier and producers are a lot more savvy at using the equiptment. It is easy enough to set up a weigh box in the race with a panel reader and the scales reader collects the data and then download straight into management software in the laptop. A weigh box can be set up going into a watering point at remote locations and data sent back to the homestead and decisions made when to market the animals.

Ken

 

[Silver]

So a those calves that weighed 575. Lets say it weighed 75 pounds at birth. That leaves 500 pounds of gained weight. A calf born February 1 and shipped the end of October is 270 days old. 500 divided by 270 is 1.85 pounds a day. The calf born 40 days later who gains at the same rate is 74 pound lighter.

Is 1.85 pounds per day considered acceptable in your area?

 

[Dave]

Is 1.85 pounds per day considered acceptable in your area?

I think it is pretty much ball park what the good calves do on range. Steep ground with poor grass and water. There are some on flat irrigated pasture that I am sure beat the heck out of that.
Neighbor got $1.81 for those calves which is over $1,000 for a 575 pound steer. I think that works.

 

[Brute 23]

So a those calves that weighed 575. Lets say it weighed 75 pounds at birth. That leaves 500 pounds of gained weight. A calf born February 1 and shipped the end of October is 270 days old. 500 divided by 270 is 1.85 pounds a day. The calf born 40 days later who gains at the same rate is 74 pound lighter.

Correct. If you dont put a dob to the weight and break down down by day your not really getting true performance just eye balling them.

From tracking our calves you have to consider weaning age along with the environment. The calf growth is not linear.

 

[GoWyo]

One reason western high elevation desert calves bring a price premium is because those calves will put down a lot of compensatory gain once they hit the feedlot versus a fleshier calf that has been raised on softer country. That 575# calf probably would have weighed a 50-100# more with an easier living, but he will catch up in a few months on good feed.

 

[Dave]

When these calves come out of the hills they get wean. Maybe not all on the same day but all within the same week. Some of best doing calves may be some of the lighter calves. They are just younger. Why did the cow breed later? There are all kinds of possibilities for that. Including the chances of a bull finding the cow when she came in heat. When there is nearly 600 cows spread out over 10,000 - 15,000 acres with 30 +/- bulls who know what can or can't happen.