Cost of Using a Maternal Bull ?

[Stocker Steve]

Ran some rainy day numbers recently on using a maternal bull. Steers and cull heifers will be smaller and worth less per pound than a terminal cross, which increases your cost of the retained heifers. Will have some actual numbers on price discount and retained % later this year - - but I am estimating my retained heifer calf opportunity cost will be U$S 45 to $ 75 over their sales barn value.

Does this make sense ?

 

[sim.-ang.king]

I would think you can make up more than difference from lower feed consumption, and the heifers being from your farm and your cows.

 

[Stocker Steve]

Yes, depending on your cost of feed, I think you would make the maternal bull cost back in one to two years. I have learned not to retain beefy terminal heifers.

Where I was going was a CB like scenario on what can you afford to pay for someone else' maternal heifers?

 

[kenny thomas]

By the time you figure the lost revenue from your steers and any heifers you might sell could you actually pay higher for some material heifers instead of raising them yourself?

 

[Brute 23]

Why would your calves be smaller and less per pound?

Are you saying $45-75 per head total over auction barn counter part?

Where I was going was a CB like scenario on what can you afford to pay for someone else' maternal heifers?

That is always going to be a individual case by case basis depending on each operation. There is no one size fits all formula.

To be honest... you lost me at maternal bull. :???:

 

[Stocker Steve]

By definition a maternal bulls offspring will have less growth and less muscle than a terminal cross, so these calves will sell for less $/head in the commodity market. Grass fed could be different.

Some folks will argue that they place value on maternal traits and terminal traits, so their bulls are great for any type of breeding, but obviously there are tradeoffs in the real world.

 

[Stocker Steve]

By the time you figure the lost revenue from your steers and any heifers you might sell could you actually pay higher for some material heifers instead of raising them yourself?

Yes. I think CB steals this kind from his neighbors. :hide:

 

[Stickney94]

Ran some rainy day numbers recently on using a maternal bull. Steers and cull heifers will be smaller and worth less per pound than a terminal cross, which increases your cost of the retained heifers. Will have some actual numbers on price discount and retained % later this year - - but I am estimating my retained heifer calf opportunity cost will be U$S 45 to $ 75 over their sales barn value.

Does this make sense ?

Have you considered using AI on your best maternal cows for replacements and breed everything else with the terminal bull of choice/you already own?

 

[Ebenezer]

Breed for the target and not for the extremes. A maternal bull will have less mature size and weight in daughters and sons but it does not mean that they are low growth. Study up on cattle that grow well early and then do not make mature monsters. If you call short pudgy cattle "maternal" the problem is the chooser and no the choice. Fire and ice breeding creates a puddle of water. Know that and do some studying. The other genetic scrambler is the "curve bender". Get little calves and big growth. It is against the environmental norms. You will learn that lesson in the second generation.

 

[Lazy M]

Ran some rainy day numbers recently on using a maternal bull. Steers and cull heifers will be smaller and worth less per pound than a terminal cross, which increases your cost of the retained heifers. Will have some actual numbers on price discount and retained % later this year - - but I am estimating my retained heifer calf opportunity cost will be U$S 45 to $ 75 over their sales barn value.

Does this make sense ?

I'd suggest splitting the difference and using an all around balanced bull that you could retain feminine heifers from and will also sire good steers.
Unless you're considering some entire breeds, like continental, as terminal(?).

 

[Stocker Steve]

- Continental cross cows usually do not winter well in the Artic Vortex. Not planning to feed silage or baleage to cows.
- Have two breeding herds currently, and doing some fire and ice matings. Results vary.
- There are some obvious cull heifers early on. An issue I have is some just continue growing until they are monsters at about 5 yrs old. How do you avoid that?

 

[Lazy M]

With Angus I suppose you could use sires with low MH, MW, and positive $E values.. AND high WW, YW, and RADG values... this is all assuming you put any trust in EPDs.. I'm often very skeptical.

 

[simme]

- Continental cross cows usually do not winter well in the Artic Vortex. Not planning to feed silage or baleage to cows.
- Have two breeding herds currently, and doing some fire and ice matings. Results vary.
- There are some obvious cull heifers early on. An issue I have is some just continue growing until they are monsters at about 5 yrs old. How do you avoid that?

I believe that fire and ice matings give much more variation. Depending on how the genetics combine (randomly), you can get anything from fire to ice and anywhere in between for characteristics. So, can have lots of variation in the calves. Breeding similar cows and bulls will produce more uniform calves (good or bad). If you select bulls based on EPD's, don't expect all the calves to actually hit the average of the sire and dam EPD's. To avoid monsters at 5 years old, breed moderate frame and weight cows to moderate frame/weight bulls. If you need to make large changes on a trait (mature size, milk, carcass, etc), breed to a bull that excels in that trait and then cull for the trait in the replacements until the cow herd is where you want them to be. Then breed to a bull that matches. It will be a journey, not a destination as "ideals" change. Can't try to "fix" all traits at the same time. Have to stick with the plan for a while instead of a new plan every breeding season.

 

[Ebenezer]

With Angus I suppose you could use sires with low MH, MW, and positive $E values.. AND high WW, YW, and RADG values... this is all assuming you put any trust in EPDs.. I'm often very skeptical.

Performance traits are the most heritable so there can be some good there. Otherwise, a blind stab.

 

[Stocker Steve]

Very good suggestion. I have tried this twice during a period where we were rapidly increasing the herd size.

- Once using timed AI. Conception rate was just under 50%. Got mostly bull calves...
- Then once on observed heats. Cows got really difficult to corral after the 4th day. Need to make lane and corral changes before considering a daily gather. I think a better approach would be dry lotting a small group of cows for two weeks.

 

[Silver]

- Continental cross cows usually do not winter well in the Artic Vortex.

:shock:

 

[Stickney94]

- Once using timed AI. Conception rate was just under 50%. Got mostly bull calves...

Understood. When seeking replacements I usually get bull calves too. haha.

I do think there are many AI bulls out there that do a lot of things well.

The pb angus cows I started with were from my dad. At the time I didn't really realize, but they were easily 7 frame cows. They were all 11+ years old having calved every year and fed pasture all summer and hay all winter (in central SD).

Based on their size, I don't think they would have been considered "maternal." But they were good mommas by my metrics.

 

[tallylittle]

Why would your calves be smaller and less per pound?

Are you saying $45-75 per head total over auction barn counter part?

Where I was going was a CB like scenario on what can you afford to pay for someone else' maternal heifers?

That is always going to be a individual case by case basis depending on each operation. There is no one size fits all formula.

To be honest... you lost me at maternal bull. :???:

Really that is good to know, thanks!

 

[Brute 23]

This maternal bull deal has really got me thinking. It was really a foreign idea to me and made me wonder why so I've been thinking on this for the past couple days while I'm driving around.

Best I can come up with is I look at my cows for maternal traits. Generally if I have a cow that consistanly puts out replacement heifers she does it with multiple bulls. I buy moderate sized bulls, with good growth, and good balance across the board. Not necessarily stronger or one thing or another and definitely not for a specific EPD. The only specialty about each bull is its breed and that is for producing certain offspring whether it's a F1 or pure blood, etc. Even then, although the breeds are different I'm going after the same traits.

When I start culling the herd, I cull or retain cows based on cows that can produce both terminal and replacement calves. Generally the specs are similar for both.

Not sure if that makes sense. The only exception is the pure blood Brahman hurd and that's a specialty market IMO.

 

[simme]

Best I can come up with is I look at my cows for maternal traits.

Half the genetics of a calf comes from the dam and half from the sire. That includes the maternal traits as well. Compare to people. If the maternal traits come from the cows, then all female people will get their maternal traits from their mother. I know many girls that obviously inherited some traits more from their father than their mother. Same for boys. If you use a bull with very low milk genetics, the heifer calves on average will milk less than their dams. What do you think?