Considering AI.

[NIdahoShorthorns]

In Wyoming you can palpate your own, but if you are doing it for someone else it is veterinary practice without a license. That said there are ultrasound techs who preg test and they don't seem to need a veterinarian license to do that.

Idaho requires AI techs be licensed. Need not be a vet though.

 

[mdt192]

I guess I was in a similar situation as the OP last year. My wife and I took AI classes, purchased the needed suppliers / semen, and bred our own using a 5 day sync + heat detect protocol that worked best for our schedule and our box of crayon cattle that can have some ear on them.

Our results were pretty bad. Of the 30 we bred, we have one definite AI calf and two possible (bulls turned in a few days after AI). I am sure it was our fault, and we will try again to see if we can do better next time. I would have loved to have a tech help, but our schedule wasn't working out.

All that to say, if it is your first time, and you AI 5 yourself, you may not get many pregnancies. I was genuinely hoping for 33%, but we were 10% or lower.

 

[farmerjan]

Agree, hated doing heifers.... rather a cow any day to breed. The tech that taught me preferred heifers and he was GOOD.....

 

[Dave]

Last I knew that's how it is in CA and WA as well. People get away with it until something goes wrong or someone gets less than desirable results then I've heard of folks getting in trouble. A few years ago I was reading that some veterinary associations were raising a fuss about it being only veterinarians who can do AI/Embryo/Palpation/ultrasound. They wanted to put a stop to private folks doing their own work or working on others. Practicing without a license was the term they used. When I went to embryo transfer school (many years ago now) I got my certification, came home and couldn't find a vet who was willing to write a script for any of the super ovulation drugs/supplies etc after my own vet retired. I was told by many vets at the time including my own that I had to have a veterinarian on site for any flushing other than my own cows or it's illegal. Same with AI and palpation.

It is certainly not illegal to palpated in WA or to AI for that matter too. It is illegal to charge to preform veterinary service without a license. But it is done all the time in WA just need to pay in cash. There is no one looking over your shoulder.

 

[redcowsrule33]

Still trying to decide on bulls to use, I know there's a lot out there but pretty set on red angus to produce future herd bull and replacements that will take my program to extreme new heights. The Mushrush herd being what I'm really wanting to lean towards. They have 4 bulls I like Icon, Dorado, Venture, and Eneko. Talking to one of the sons, he's advising Icon, Dorado, or Venture. The Eneko bull looks outstanding on paper but just not proven. Says the most proven bull is Icon and year after year produces outstanding females and therefore is my plan although with 6+ possible matings I may try another from them from those bulls. Dorado is a beast and I want to try based on looks yet Venture is young and has the numbers. Eneko has both but very unproven and a bit on the risky side.

https://vm-zebu.redangus.org/redspro/redspro/action/animalSearch.AnimalSearchAction?eventSubmit_switchTemplate=T&template=expanded&animalNumber=4751583

https://vm-zebu.redangus.org/redspro/redspro/action/animalSearch.AnimalSearchAction?eventSubmit_displayAnimal=T&animalNumber=4067186

https://vm-zebu.redangus.org/redspro/redspro/action/animalSearch.AnimalSearchAction?eventSubmit_displayAnimal=T&animalNumber=4413471

https://vm-zebu.redangus.org/redspro/redspro/action/animalSearch.AnimalSearchAction?eventSubmit_displayAnimal=T&animalNumber=4751685

I don't think you could go wrong with the Mushrush bulls. Did they say what the frame scores are on those bulls?
One thing to consider that I haven't seen mentioned is the shipping tanks don't have a very long holding time. Logistics might be against you to get the semen, AI the cows, and return it in a timely manner if you don't have a tank available to store the semen in.

 

[wbvs58]

Some people favor heifers, but I don't. Like threading a macaroni noodle on the A.I. gun.

I like heifers, they are much easier on my poor old hands. Last year I managed to settle all 10 of my heifers, 8 on the first insemination and the other two I caught by using estrotect patches 3 weeks later.. I get good results with my first calvers as well. Some of the older cows can be a bit of a challenge on my old hands especially if they haven't already cycled a couple of times to shrink things back to a more normal size.

Ken

 

[Double R Ranch]

It is certainly not illegal to palpated in WA or to AI for that matter too. It is illegal to charge to preform veterinary service without a license. But it is done all the time in WA just need to pay in cash. There is no one looking over your shoulder.

It was in WA when I went to school there according to select sires. That was a long time ago though. It was considered veterinary care.

 

[Dave]

It was in WA when I went to school there according to select sires. That was a long time ago though. It was considered veterinary care.

In WA in '13, '14, '15, & '16 we AI'ed 60 heifers each of those years. I did the prep work with TAI. The day of the breeding the select sires rep showed up with the semen and prepped it. A man who did all the reproductive work for a 1,000 cow dairy did the actual inseminating. I ran the chute and gave them their final shot. The wife pushed cows in. I don't remember how long it took us but it was pretty fast. I had the dairy employee come back later to preg check. He was 2 years ahead of me in high school. His dad was a vet. He learned to AI which still in high school. He worked for large dairies all his life. He would have been 64 in 2013.

 

[fnfarms1]

I don't know what classes are around here anymore or what they would cost. I don't see any listed. Haven't in years. I would expect that kind of pricing for our area for a multiple day class probably. But everything is very expensive here. I went 2 states away many years ago to take my class as it was the only one I could get for at least a year I think it was at the time. We didn't have many cows and I still didn't/don't regret the decision. I do not miss having a bull and all that goes with them for our cattle. I have the ability to pick and choose bulls I'd never be able to afford to use on our cows. I have beef and dairy in our tank and multiple bulls of each with selected traits. I also keep sexed semen which gives me a lot more options. Yes every three months I take the tank to get filled because our rep retired and now we are "too small" for semen companies to think we are worth their time. Even dairies in our area are having the same problem now. Sad sign of the times. However this year we found a rep who ships us semen at a very reasonable price. In the past shipping was expensive leading us to buy a lot at one time to make it a little easier to validate the expense. So every three months I fill the tank and that's about all I have to do for upkeep. I can breed at any time I choose not having to wait on someone else's schedule. I wish I could have taken a palpation course but in our state and surrounding states it's "illegal" to palpate. Having said that during my class I had my arm in a jersey practicing and felt what I was sure was a pregnancy. The teacher argued with me telling me she wasn't bred as she was a cull cow from the stock yards and was open. I kept insisting so he checked her to prove me wrong and she was bred. Thankfully I was the first one to have an arm in her so she was no longer going to be used for practice. I would take the class again even if I had 2 cows although it would be a little harder I'm sure not breeding more regularly.
Having said all that if you are just looking for a one time breeding thing to get a replacement bull you want for your herd I'm not sure the costs are worth it for that reason.

At first I was going to hire the Ai done to get my herd bull as a one time deal. The more I get in it I'm seeing it as replacing bull with Ai, still using cleanup/herd bull but only one instead of always having 2. I guess my new vision is to make my own replacement heifers myself through Ai every year. Although if I find it's just not my thing then maybe I just keep said Ai bull from first crop and figure I wasted 1200 to learn that. Knowing I'll need to plan ahead and hire it out in future years or plan it myself

 

[wbvs58]

At first I was going to hire the Ai done to get my herd bull as a one time deal. The more I get in it I'm seeing it as replacing bull with Ai, still using cleanup/herd bull but only one instead of always having 2. I guess my new vision is to make my own replacement heifers myself through Ai every year. Although if I find it's just not my thing then maybe I just keep said Ai bull from first crop and figure I wasted 1200 to learn that. Knowing I'll need to plan ahead and hire it out in future years or plan it myself

It won't be wasted, some people hit the ground running others it is a real slog. You won't know where you fit in until you try it when you come to do your own down the track. Just stay focussed and plan well and don't put too much pressure on yourself. The results are enjoyable as well as rewarding.

Ken

 

[Double R Ranch]

It won't be wasted, some people hit the ground running others it is a real slog. You won't know where you fit in until you try it when you come to do your own down the track. Just stay focussed and plan well and don't put too much pressure on yourself. The results are enjoyable as well as rewarding.

Ken

This is what I was going to say also. Agree 100%.

 

[fnfarms1]

I don't think you could go wrong with the Mushrush bulls. Did they say what the frame scores are on those bulls?
One thing to consider that I haven't seen mentioned is the shipping tanks don't have a very long holding time. Logistics might be against you to get the semen, AI the cows, and return it in a timely manner if you don't have a tank available to store the semen in.

Frame scores I didn't ask for. I spoke to Daniel Mushrush, one of the 2 sons. I explained that I prefer a smaller(what I call short/fat cow) in that 1100-1300lb range vs those 14-1600lb cows that seem so popular. We were discussing Dorado or Icon and he said either fit that size. I really lean to Icon because he's had 5+yrs of proven females that are outstanding and was the sire I wanted bull calf from to produce my females originally. Dorado has the looks I like a lot and hard not to go after him. Venture is a bit of a blend of both but bit of wild card, yet to be proven.

Shipping and storage isn't an issue because the school/vet will store it for me. Gets shipped straight to them at cost since in their class. They will store it indefinitely for $30/qtr. which long term would be cheaper than charging and keeping up with tank, although if I like it, a tank will be necessary just to breed my own at home even if stored at the vet.
Eventually a better chute than my old Filson may be needed but it works for everything but my bulls currently(their necks are to big). Just do pour on wormer in alley or injectable at semen test at vet. Or safeguard pellets to change it up.

 

[Named'em Tamed'em]

We did AI for 5 years before my tech moved and I was slowed by cancer. I would patch them up and I would put a straw in the am and my tech would do it after work pm. We were running over 90% success. One day he says who's settling them you or me? I started using Hereford and him angus. He always won .
Calving starts soon and I'll give it another go .

 

[fnfarms1]

We did AI for 5 years before my tech moved and I was slowed by cancer. I would patch them up and I would put a straw in the am and my tech would do it after work pm. We were running over 90% success. One day he says who's settling them you or me? I started using Hereford and him angus. He always won .
Calving starts soon and I'll give it another go .

That's good to know. Honestly hoping for 50%, anything better I'll consider a plus.

Frame scores I didn't ask for. I spoke to Daniel Mushrush, one of the 2 sons. I explained that I prefer a smaller(what I call short/fat cow) in that 1100-1300lb range vs those 14-1600lb cows that seem so popular. We were discussing Dorado or Icon and he said either fit that size. I really lean to Icon because he's had 5+yrs of proven females that are outstanding and was the sire I wanted bull calf from to produce my females originally. Dorado has the looks I like a lot and hard not to go after him. Venture is a bit of a blend of both but bit of wild card, yet to be proven.

Shipping and storage isn't an issue because the school/vet will store it for me. Gets shipped straight to them at cost since in their class. They will store it indefinitely for $30/qtr. which long term would be cheaper than charging and keeping up with tank, although if I like it, a tank will be necessary just to breed my own at home even if stored at the vet.
Eventually a better chute than my old Filson may be needed but it works for everything but my bulls currently(their necks are to big). Just do pour on wormer in alley or injectable at semen test at vet. Or safeguard pellets to change it up.

Went today and got the drugs and CIDRs to set them up. They agreed to do 8, calves have to go with them and 10cows is fairly crowded in my 20ft trailer. So I got the stuff for 8, if one misses heat then she either won't go or Ai her anyway and maybe it sticks. Also found out in the future, I can ship semen to them and rent a tank for $35/10days. Breed cows and return the tank. That seems like big bonus should I continue this idea. Only buying 9 straws of semen this time so there's at most 1 left over, last cow gets 2 or a spare if I mess up. $20/straw isn't worth messing up and not having

 

[crossbreed]

veterinarian 42 yrs experience many cows ai, how about another idea>
consider offering the ai school your cows ready to breed,, or consider a "second school" for a few more dollars to supervise your attempts,
could get the school free for bringing your cows,
bring your own cows to the school chute, ai them yourself while instructor helps you.

Great idea! I attended the Oklahoma farrier school in Stillwater back in the 70's. We would have morning classes inside and load up on a bus every day after lunch to some ranch or such and work on horses all afternoon. Made out well for the school, us and the ranchers. Sometimes people would bring their horses to the school and we would work on them at night.

 

[NIdahoShorthorns]

That's good to know. Honestly hoping for 50%, anything better I'll consider a plus.

Went today and got the drugs and CIDRs to set them up. They agreed to do 8, calves have to go with them and 10cows is fairly crowded in my 20ft trailer. So I got the stuff for 8, if one misses heat then she either won't go or Ai her anyway and maybe it sticks. Also found out in the future, I can ship semen to them and rent a tank for $35/10days. Breed cows and return the tank. That seems like big bonus should I continue this idea. Only buying 9 straws of semen this time so there's at most 1 left over, last cow gets 2 or a spare if I mess up. $20/straw isn't worth messing up and not having

If you start using AI yearly buying a tank and storing your own semen is pretty easy. The tank I bought recently was $700 and will cost about $150 a year in nitrogen. For the semen the cost per straw isn't much in comparison to the shipping costs, which has been $100-$150 per delivery for me. That cost doesn't change unless you get more than one shipper tank can hold. I guess my point is if you like a bull enough to buy one straw you might as well buy enough to try 2 or 3 times.

 

[wbvs58]

We did AI for 5 years before my tech moved and I was slowed by cancer. I would patch them up and I would put a straw in the am and my tech would do it after work pm. We were running over 90% success. One day he says who's settling them you or me? I started using Hereford and him angus. He always won .
Calving starts soon and I'll give it another go .

That sounds like a good system especially for someone starting up. Your tech had the advantage though breeding them late.

Ken

 

[fnfarms1]

If you start using AI yearly buying a tank and storing your own semen is pretty easy. The tank I bought recently was $700 and will cost about $150 a year in nitrogen. For the semen the cost per straw isn't much in comparison to the shipping costs, which has been $100-$150 per delivery for me. That cost doesn't change unless you get more than one shipper tank can hold. I guess my point is if you like a bull enough to buy one straw you might as well buy enough to try 2 or 3 times.

The school/vet sells the tanks as well. Said $700 on them as well and they're the best, whatever brand that is. Shipping for me is $175, that's only 9straws although it'd be the same on 200straws. Just seems the same really to pay the shipping vs tank upkeep. There's guys that travel routes to fill tanks, but still seems about the same except it's on me to make sure it's done.
Best case would be having a trip to pick it up. Semen I'm buying is from 3.5hrs away. It's worth the $175 in time and fuel savings. Did learn the auctioneer for Mushrush is from my town and good friend of my dads. Maybe ask him to transport for me next year. This is a trial run with pretty large learning curve.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

I keep reading the title of this thread a keep thinking its a discussion of Artificial Intelligence. This is the 'other' AI, the one that is not 'mainstream', which I much prefer.

 

[wbvs58]

I keep reading the title of this thread a keep thinking its a discussion of Artificial Intelligence. This is the 'other' AI, the one that is not 'mainstream', which I much prefer.

AI has always been artificial insemination to me Mark but these days I have to look twice as the meaning of artificial intelligence seems to be overtaking the traditional meaning.

Ken