Considering AI.

[fnfarms1]

Still trying to decide on bulls to use, I know there's a lot out there but pretty set on red angus to produce future herd bull and replacements that will take my program to extreme new heights. The Mushrush herd being what I'm really wanting to lean towards. They have 4 bulls I like Icon, Dorado, Venture, and Eneko. Talking to one of the sons, he's advising Icon, Dorado, or Venture. The Eneko bull looks outstanding on paper but just not proven. Says the most proven bull is Icon and year after year produces outstanding females and therefore is my plan although with 6+ possible matings I may try another from them from those bulls. Dorado is a beast and I want to try based on looks yet Venture is young and has the numbers. Eneko has both but very unproven and a bit on the risky side.

https://vm-zebu.redangus.org/redspro/redspro/action/animalSearch.AnimalSearchAction?eventSubmit_switchTemplate=T&template=expanded&animalNumber=4751583

https://vm-zebu.redangus.org/redspro/redspro/action/animalSearch.AnimalSearchAction?eventSubmit_displayAnimal=T&animalNumber=4067186

https://vm-zebu.redangus.org/redspro/redspro/action/animalSearch.AnimalSearchAction?eventSubmit_displayAnimal=T&animalNumber=4413471

https://vm-zebu.redangus.org/redspro/redspro/action/animalSearch.AnimalSearchAction?eventSubmit_displayAnimal=T&animalNumber=4751685

 

[SBMF 2015]

Going to call Monday and ask how many they will take. I've got 24cows, can leave the heifers home. I mean if it'd help I'll bring 24 just cuz I'm a nice guy

If you're talking about taking your cows to the AI school I wouldn't.
Our local Ag college teaches an AI class they used to get a semi load of cull dairy cows to practice on. Now they borrow a load of beef culls. The repeated breeding of cows not in heat by inexperienced people is really hard and sometimes damaging to the cows.

 

[OBAX]

If you're talking about taking your cows to the AI school I wouldn't.
Our local Ag college teaches an AI class they used to get a semi load of cull dairy cows to practice on. Now they borrow a load of beef culls. The repeated breeding of cows not in heat by inexperienced people is really hard and sometimes damaging to the cows.

Yea in my experience the practice cows will be pretty used up at end of the day. No way I'd use my cows for a class of beginners. They'll all be bloody and humped up when y'all are done.
That's why mostly all classes use old sale barn cows because the only thing a dozen arms 10 times each won't mess up is the meat.

 

[texoman]

Very good points. I was thinking it would just be him doing his own cows.

 

[chaded]

If you were asking about buying a bull there would be people that would say "for just a few cows have you considered AI?" You have a few cows and ask about AI and people say you don't have enough cows. LOL

If I was serious and the school was great and I had the money for it I wouldn't hesitate to spend the money on it. Do what you think will work best for your operation.

 

[chevytaHOE5674]

If you were asking about buying a bull there would be people that would say "for just a few cows have you considered AI?" You have a few cows and ask about AI and people say you don't have enough cows. LOL

Most of us aren't saying "you don't have enough cows to AI". We are saying "you don't have enough cows to learn to AI yourself and become an expert", because it takes a lot of experience to become good at it, and 5 cows a years isn't enough.

When people recommend a AI instead of bull they generally mean contract it out to an experienced AI tech who has the equipment and experience to get the cows bred quickly and reliably.

 

[simme]

A person does not need to become an "expert" to get cows bred AI. An "expert" can be in and out of the cow in about 15 seconds. So what if it takes you 5 minutes or longer to get through the cervix? The important thing is getting your cows settled, no getting to expert status or even good at it. If you understand the heat cycle, the anatomy and the placement, you can get cows bred even with frustration and anxiety. Patience is a virtue along with encouragement.

Many AI schools will allow a person to return to future schools for additional practice at no additional cost. Remember that old thing about learning to swim - don't get into the water until you have learned how to swim. Sort of impossible. Even the 'experts' weren't born with that status. They had to start somewhere and improve based on opportunity.

 

[Dsth]

I started about 40 years ago. my ABS class was at a local sales barn. ABS bought cull cows to practice on after classroom time using reproductive tracks from a butcher. At the time, I had around 60 dairy cows. started with a conception rate around 60% if I remember correctly but had my AI tech come to breed some that I couldn't get through the cervix. got better over time. class time is a good tool but is way different than what you find actually breeding your own cows. the past 20 years have been breeding my 20 - 30 beef cows. like others have said, each year is almost like starting over when you have a short breeding season. each year different cows have different challenges. I have some cows that will have an open cervix that has no resistance and I wonder if I am even in the uterus to deposit semen. others that are a real struggle. as a general rule of thumb, cows will be easier to get through vs. heifers. I would never discourage anyone from trying AI because I think it is a great tool to quickly improve herd genetics. If you feel comfortable with the cost and willing to except the fact that AI conception rates may be lower than you would like starting out then go for it. Hope you have good luck with whatever you choose to do.

 

[chevytaHOE5674]

A person does not need to become an "expert" to get cows bred AI. An "expert" can be in and out of the cow in about 15 seconds. So what if it takes you 5 minutes or longer to get through the cervix?

First hand experience has shown me that the cow bred in 15 seconds is more likely to settle than the one that was rooted around in for 5 minutes.

So if conception rate is your end goal I'll take the cow bred correctly in 15 seconds over the 5 minute one everytime.

 

[fnfarms1]

That's my understanding. At least what I ask was "can I bring my own cows and Ai them if their setup and ready the last day or 2 of the school"? The answer was yes. I'll have to clarify that but she said yes Tony can help with them as easy as our practice cows. Tony Small being the vet that is

 

[SBMF 2015]

First hand experience has shown me that the cow bred in 15 seconds is more likely to settle than the one that was rooted around in for 5 minutes.

So if conception rate is your end goal I'll take the cow bred correctly in 15 seconds over the 5 minute one everytime.

There's a fine line. There was a teacher at the university that was so fast and smooth that at his peak he was faster than 15sec. He started having trouble settling hfrs. They finally figured out that he was so fast that he wasn't stimulating the hfrs enough for them to settle.

 

[chevytaHOE5674]

There's a fine line. There was a teacher at the university that was so fast and smooth that at his peak he was faster than 15sec. He started having trouble settling hfrs. They finally figured out that he was so fast that he wasn't stimulating the hfrs enough for them to settle.

At some point they become agitated, uncomfortable, and less likely to breed. At 5 minutes my personal experience says you have almost as good of success if you deposit the semen on the ground.

 

[PPRM]

There's so much more to it than just the class. I like the idea of having that ability in my toolbox. That said, I've taken the class twice, from two different but reputable instructors. Both taught really well and the cost was roughly $800 each time. They taught AI and preg. Determination. After the class, don't expect to feel confident or be proficient enough to jump in and AI for yourself much less other people. You will learn the anatomy and process, but until you have passed a straw on, I'd venture to say, 100's of cows, you will not be confident or able to breed your own or others' cows consistently. They can teach the process and help you feel the process, but they cannot make you an overnight breeder.
Get out of the class and you'll have to continue to practice on live cows to get that feel. But maybe even more important than that "feel", is proper semen handling and storage. There is a very specific process to removing, thawing, loading semen that takes a lot of repetition to master.
All I say is don't expect to finish the class on Friday and breed your cows on Monday. Have a follow up plan to get your arm in a lot of cattle and pass some straws. And after you've mastered that there's the heat detection or sync protocols to master. Knowing how is worthless if it's not done at the right time.
But you know who is a master at the whole process? A bull!

I go back and forth on this. The bulls are better and enjoy it more. But the bulls I like are north of $10,000. I can buy a lot of Semen out of better bulls for that

 

[PPRM]

Maybe?
My best friend is really good at AI. I can Preg check but can't AI. He told me that in 30 minutes with a repo track from the local butcher he could teach me how to do it.
Maybe find someone who Al's who is willing to teach you?

My 12 year old son wants to learn. I found some Hereford semen on SireBuyer for like $4/straw. ( really old genetics) I figure for that price he could breed the cows twice and if they don't stick we're really not out much.

We buy heifers to feed. I just had a thought about it that could be a win win.

First, preg them on arrival and make a plan. Quite honestly, we might calve some and after a few days graft the calf to a really good jersey nurse cow. Feed out all but a few elite heifers.

But for my young guy to gain experience, what if we AI'd heifer showing heat. They take and gain better because they aren't fooling around. He gains experience.

If I collect on our bulls, the straws could be relatively cheap.

 

[Double R Ranch]

I don't know what classes are around here anymore or what they would cost. I don't see any listed. Haven't in years. I would expect that kind of pricing for our area for a multiple day class probably. But everything is very expensive here. I went 2 states away many years ago to take my class as it was the only one I could get for at least a year I think it was at the time. We didn't have many cows and I still didn't/don't regret the decision. I do not miss having a bull and all that goes with them for our cattle. I have the ability to pick and choose bulls I'd never be able to afford to use on our cows. I have beef and dairy in our tank and multiple bulls of each with selected traits. I also keep sexed semen which gives me a lot more options. Yes every three months I take the tank to get filled because our rep retired and now we are "too small" for semen companies to think we are worth their time. Even dairies in our area are having the same problem now. Sad sign of the times. However this year we found a rep who ships us semen at a very reasonable price. In the past shipping was expensive leading us to buy a lot at one time to make it a little easier to validate the expense. So every three months I fill the tank and that's about all I have to do for upkeep. I can breed at any time I choose not having to wait on someone else's schedule. I wish I could have taken a palpation course but in our state and surrounding states it's "illegal" to palpate. Having said that during my class I had my arm in a jersey practicing and felt what I was sure was a pregnancy. The teacher argued with me telling me she wasn't bred as she was a cull cow from the stock yards and was open. I kept insisting so he checked her to prove me wrong and she was bred. Thankfully I was the first one to have an arm in her so she was no longer going to be used for practice. I would take the class again even if I had 2 cows although it would be a little harder I'm sure not breeding more regularly.
Having said all that if you are just looking for a one time breeding thing to get a replacement bull you want for your herd I'm not sure the costs are worth it for that reason.

 

[Dave]

in our state and surrounding states it's "illegal" to palpate

Which state are you from and which surrounding states? I have never heard this and I am definitely "out west".

 

[GoWyo]

In Wyoming you can palpate your own, but if you are doing it for someone else it is veterinary practice without a license. That said there are ultrasound techs who preg test and they don't seem to need a veterinarian license to do that.

 

[Double R Ranch]

Last I knew that's how it is in CA and WA as well. People get away with it until something goes wrong or someone gets less than desirable results then I've heard of folks getting in trouble. A few years ago I was reading that some veterinary associations were raising a fuss about it being only veterinarians who can do AI/Embryo/Palpation/ultrasound. They wanted to put a stop to private folks doing their own work or working on others. Practicing without a license was the term they used. When I went to embryo transfer school (many years ago now) I got my certification, came home and couldn't find a vet who was willing to write a script for any of the super ovulation drugs/supplies etc after my own vet retired. I was told by many vets at the time including my own that I had to have a veterinarian on site for any flushing other than my own cows or it's illegal. Same with AI and palpation.

 

[SBMF 2015]

We buy heifers to feed. I just had a thought about it that could be a win win.

First, preg them on arrival and make a plan. Quite honestly, we might calve some and after a few days graft the calf to a really good jersey nurse cow. Feed out all but a few elite heifers.

But for my young guy to gain experience, what if we AI'd heifer showing heat. They take and gain better because they aren't fooling around. He gains experience.

If I collect on our bulls, the straws could be relatively cheap.

It's a thought. The experienced AI folks will all tell you that hfrs can be a real pain to AI. They have small tracks that can be all wadded up making it harder to impossible to get the straw through. It might be more frustrating for a young person trying to learn than it's worth.

 

[GoWyo]

It's a thought. The experienced AI folks will all tell you that hfrs can be a real pain to AI. They have small tracks that can be all wadded up making it harder to impossible to get the straw through. It might be more frustrating for a young person trying to learn than it's worth.

Some people favor heifers, but I don't. Like threading a macaroni noodle on the A.I. gun.