Composite Bulls

[JustSimmental]

What did Blk Angus do for SImmental:

The Pros:
1. Decreased Frame Scores
2. Decreased Birth Weights
3. Increased Calving Ease
4. Increased IMF
5. Decreased MM

The Cons:
1. Decreased REA
2. Increased BF
3. Decreased WW
4. Decreased YW
5. Decreased CW

When you take a PB Blk Simmental Dam (which has Blk Angus in her pedigree to be black anyway) and breed her to a PB Blk Angus you will get a 50/50 S/A.

By using the PB Simm on the Dam side of the equation, we are hoping for better production in the performance categories like WW, YW, MWW, *REA and CW.

By using the PB Blk Angus on the Sire side of the equation, we are hoping for better carcass merits like an increase in IMF, a better balanced YG, a better balanced BF; without too many deleterious effects to the production side.

Blk Angus compared to Simmental have pathetic WW and YW, terrible BF and terrible REA; but in the S/A cross, we see an improvement in the performance traits (simm genetics) and an improvement in the carcass merits (Blk Angus genetics).

This cross has been able to produce uniformity in the finished product, which is why SimmAngus cattle have become very popular in the last decade.
JS

 

[Bonsman]

Their mutts, plain and simple

I strongly disagree if you are calling Gerts or my Bonsmara mutts. Bonsmara is the only breed on this earth that is scientifically produced with complete pictorial genealogy with every characteristic quantified. After more than 50 years of selection, economically important traits have been stabilized within the breed to insure high productivity and adaptability in harsh or drought conditions.

Characteristics of the Bonsmara breed show real results, such as a 20% increase in weaning weights of crossbred cows compared to the parent breeds. Also, the calving percentages of crossbred cows were higher while the mortality rate of calves was significantly lower. African cattle producers were impressed by the breed's high quality, durability and productivity that in less than 25 years, Bonsmara became the strongest beef breed in South Africa.

Overall, there have been approximately one million animals studied.

The Bonsmara breed completely dominates beef production in South Africa under an extensive range environment where climate and terrain is very similar to the Southern United States.

I would not call Bonsmara, the most dominant beef breed in South Africa, a mutt. That would be like the South Africans calling Angus, Hereford, or whatever you raise, a mutt. It does not make any sense.

 

[JustSimmental]

One problem we are seeing with PB Simmental is the use of some really Weak Sires in traits that PB Simmental have traditionally been very strong in -- e.g. WW, YW, REA, MWW and Stay (longevity).

A good example of some really weak sires that some ppl have used quite a bit--sadly are:

Burns Bull --his numbers are terrible especially when you look him up when the PB Simm were in their infancy (1988).

Another terrible bull (performance wise) and another popular foundation junk herd sire with many breeders is Hooks Shear Force-- terrible numbers and it shows in many of his calves.

We had a few calves from him years ago and all were culls. Worthless.

Since that time we have refused to use Hooks Shear Force due to his terrible performance.
His calves are tiny; their WW's are horrific; YW's are horrific; really lacking in growth. MM of 14 is indeed awful --- off the charts bad.
Comparing a Simmental to an Angus in the MM category:

When Angus is 0 Simmental is +11.8.
Figure a normal Angus cow at 26 MM and what HSF translates into:

26 + 11.8 + 14 = 52 MM--- who in their right mind wants heifers or bulls for that matter with a MM EPD of 52?-- Not me. Some ppl in the Simm business continue to use this junk.

Many breeders are VERY behind in PB Simmental, mostly due to their use of foundation junk herd sires like HSF, Burns Bull, Black Joker, WLE Power Stroke, Macho, Gold Mine, Circlet Star, -- I could go on and on.

WS Beef Maker is probably the best calf ever produced out of HSF. His performance numbers stem from his Dams side of the equation-- and definately not from the HSF line.
WS BM is out of two heterozygous black parents and just happened to be red in color but is not from true red genetics.
The only reason we don't use WS Beef Maker is his sire--- HSF --- those genetics bleed bad in the performance category.

JS

 

[Galloways1]

QOTE JS -When you take a PB Blk Simmental Dam (which has Blk Angus in her pedigree to be black anyway) and breed her to a PB Blk Angus you will get a 50/50 S/A.

Your resulting bull calf would have more Angus traits than Simm traits. If someone took this bull calf and used it as a 50/50 sim/an, on Angus cows, the resulting calves would be more than 3/4 Angus. The original full blood Sim X full blood Angus calves would be way more consitent. A bull from a true 50/50 sim/an herd bred as a "breed", should give commercial cattlemen a more consitant calf crop than just any old sim / an crossbred bull.
IMO

 

[JustSimmental]

QOTE JS -When you take a PB Blk Simmental Dam (which has Blk Angus in her pedigree to be black anyway) and breed her to a PB Blk Angus you will get a 50/50 S/A.

You are missing the point here ---- when I say back in her pedigree -- I mean years ago -- nowadays, hence the term PB (purebred) Simmental. Years ago they bred FB Simms to Angus then bred them to other PB blk Simms and over the generations bred them back to what we refer today as PB Simms.

The blk PB Simms of today are possibly 15/16's or even more, yet cannot be labeled as FB.
So, your resulting bull calf from this PB Simm Dam crossed with a PB Angus Sire gives us our 50/50.

Your resulting bull calf would have more Angus traits than Simm traits.
If someone took this bull calf and used it as a 50/50 sim/an, on Angus cows, the resulting calves would be more than 3/4 Angus. No


The original full blood Sim X full blood Angus calves would be way more consitent. A bull from a true 50/50 sim/an herd bred as a "breed", should give commercial cattlemen a more consitant calf crop than just any old sim / an crossbred bull.
IMO

This is very unlikely, for these reasons:
1. The Fleck Simm x PB Angus --is NOT a "breed"
2. The reason PB Angus were crossed with the Fleck Simm, initially, was to improve on the traits of economic importance, as the FB's did not have the genetic capability to meet the industry standards of the day.

Those type calves, you are referring to, would be even less consistent due in most part to those very genetics that would not stand the test of time in FB's. Here is the Dam from a very popular old FB Sire DOB 1974, C & B Western

CE: -7.8
BW: 7.8
WW: 41
YW: 66
MCE: - 9.3
MM: 21.9
MWW: 43
CW: 13
YG: -0.04
IMF: -0.14
BF: -0.04
REA: 0.05

Breed her to a PB Angus Sire of the same era:
Schearbrook Sensation DOB 1976 (8 Generations away from MYTTY in Focus)

CE: n/a
BW: -4.9
WW: -1.9
YW: 4.4
MCE: n/a
MM: -12.4
MWW: -13.3
CW: -42
YG: -0.04
IMF: 0.19
BF: 0.07
REA: -0.57

This pairing, which is what you say above, would be more consistent Sire is the following:

CE: n/a
BW: +4.1
WW: 23
YW: 35
MCE: n/a
MM: 10.2
MWW: 15
CW: -14.3
YG: 0.02
IMF: 0.03
BF: 0.02
REA: -0.26

Do you see any redeeming qualities in that Sire? (FB Simm x PB Angus) I don't
Ok so now you plan to breed this Sire to an Angus cow where these are her numbers:
(this is an Objective Daughter-- trying to help you here as this is not the norm for Angus)

CE: n/a
BW: -3.3
WW: 29
YW: 74
MCE: n/a
MM: 11.2
MWW: 21
CW: 3.1
YG: 0.21
IMF: 0.83
BF: 0.07
REA: -0.08

Bred to your S/A above =

CE: n/a
BW: +1.1 bottom 20% from Hybrid table
WW: +23 terrible
YW: +54 terrible
MCE: n/a
MM: 10.2 terrible
MWW: 18 OK
CW: -6.1 terrible
YG: 0.12 terrible
IMF: 0.43 top 30%
BF: 0.05 terrible
REA: -0.17 awful

This a calf you think would be better suited for your production unit by using FB Simm x PB Angus ?
You may want to re-think that just a tad.
JS

 

[Galloways1]

QOTE JS -When you take a PB Blk Simmental Dam (which has Blk Angus in her pedigree to be black anyway) and breed her to a PB Blk Angus you will get a 50/50 S/A.

You are missing the point here ---- when I say back in her pedigree -- I mean years ago -- nowadays, hence the term PB (purebred) Simmental. Years ago they bred FB Simms to Angus then bred them to other PB blk Simms and over the generations bred them back to what we refer today as PB Simms.

The blk PB Simms of today are possibly 15/16's or even more, yet cannot be labeled as FB.
So, your resulting bull calf from this PB Simm Dam crossed with a PB Angus Sire gives us our 50/50.

Your resulting bull calf would have more Angus traits than Simm traits.
If someone took this bull calf and used it as a 50/50 sim/an, on Angus cows, the resulting calves would be more than 3/4 Angus. No


The original full blood Sim X full blood Angus calves would be way more consitent. A bull from a true 50/50 sim/an herd bred as a "breed", should give commercial cattlemen a more consitant calf crop than just any old sim / an crossbred bull.
IMO

This is very unlikely, for these reasons:
1. The Fleck Simm x PB Angus --is NOT a "breed"
2. The reason PB Angus were crossed with the Fleck Simm, initially, was to improve on the traits of economic importance, as the FB's did not have the genetic capability to meet the industry standards of the day.

Those type calves, you are referring to, would be even less consistent due in most part to those very genetics that would not stand the test of time in FB's. Here is the Dam from a very popular old FB Sire DOB 1974, C & B Western

CE: -7.8
BW: 7.8
WW: 41
YW: 66
MCE: - 9.3
MM: 21.9
MWW: 43
CW: 13
YG: -0.04
IMF: -0.14
BF: -0.04
REA: 0.05

Breed her to a PB Angus Sire of the same era:
Schearbrook Sensation DOB 1976 (8 Generations away from MYTTY in Focus)

CE: n/a
BW: -4.9
WW: -1.9
YW: 4.4
MCE: n/a
MM: -12.4
MWW: -13.3
CW: -42
YG: -0.04
IMF: 0.19
BF: 0.07
REA: -0.57

This pairing, which is what you say above, would be more consistent Sire is the following:

CE: n/a
BW: +4.1
WW: 23
YW: 35
MCE: n/a
MM: 10.2
MWW: 15
CW: -14.3
YG: 0.02
IMF: 0.03
BF: 0.02
REA: -0.26

Do you see any redeeming qualities in that Sire? (FB Simm x PB Angus) I don't
Ok so now you plan to breed this Sire to an Angus cow where these are her numbers:
(this is an Objective Daughter-- trying to help you here as this is not the norm for Angus)

CE: n/a
BW: -3.3
WW: 29
YW: 74
MCE: n/a
MM: 11.2
MWW: 21
CW: 3.1
YG: 0.21
IMF: 0.83
BF: 0.07
REA: -0.08

Bred to your S/A above =

CE: n/a
BW: +1.1 bottom 20% from Hybrid table
WW: +23 terrible
YW: +54 terrible
MCE: n/a
MM: 10.2 terrible
MWW: 18 OK
CW: -6.1 terrible
YG: 0.12 terrible
IMF: 0.43 top 30%
BF: 0.05 terrible
REA: -0.17 awful

This a calf you think would be better suited for your production unit by using FB Simm x PB Angus ?
You may want to re-think that just a tad.
JS

We could go round and round all day. 15/16 = 93.8 % Sim, bred to a 100 % Angus gives you a 53.1% An 46.9% Sim, not 50/50. This calf bred to a 100% Angus gives you a 76.55% Angus 23.45% Sim.

What I was getting at was that over time, if true 50/50 blood animals were bred as a breed, culling for undesireable traits, creating a composite breed. The resulting breeding stock would be more consistent and give you more hybred vigor, when crossed on breed Y cows. Better than just a crossbred bull with similar blood percentage, on those same cows.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Galloway - just ignore JS - he is just BlahBlahBlah. His BlahBlah makes Simmental breeders look bad.
You are correct in that a PB black Simm dam contains "some" Angus - anywhere from 1/8 down to an infinite number. Many probably only have the "hair" gene ( :lol: ) to show for it, but yes, it's there.
Despite his ramblings, he is correct that SimmAngus is a great cross. But, they are a crossbred - not a composite breed.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

jeanne my guess is, he is bad mouthing you to other simmental breeder's ... real cattleman dont do that..

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

I think my reputation can handle his bad mouthing if there was any.
He's probably I nice guy - just waaayyyy toooooo pushy & opinionated. Not that I'm either of those things :lol:

 

[JustSimmental]

What we have been working on a good many years is a true red SimmAngus-- with decent numbers. In PB Simmental there is a great influence of CNS Dream On and WS Beef Maker in red cattle, but neither one is true red. (both have at least one heterozygous blk parent)

The red cattle genetics at least in PB Simmental has been pretty bad, since the red cattle weren't that great to begin with (i.e. FB) and the Red Angus cattle they used to turn them solid red were punk as well. Anyway it has been a nightmare for PB Simm red genetics.

This fall we will have several red S/A calves from true red genetics.

On the Dam's side those foundation bloodlines (FB) went back to Siegfried
1. We took several FB dams and bred them to a Bieber Bull --Red Angus
2. We then took those 1/2 S/A heifers and bred them true red PB Simm (genetics not included)
3. We then took those 3/4 S/A heifers and bred them true red again to produce Red PB Simms
4. These true red PB Simm heifers were bred to a good Red Angus Sire.

15 years of working on red genetics.

This Fall the numbers for these Red S/A calves will be:
CE: n/a
BW: - 3.1
WW: +38.6
YW: +77.5
MCE: n/a
MM: +3.8
MWW: +26.3
CW: +3.4
YG: +0.16
Marb: +0.93
BF: +0.07
REA: +0.35
API: 150
TI: 90

 

[JustSimmental]

Jeanne -- we just have different ideas about what good cattle are and that is the best way for me to explain it. I dont have anything against you-- you "guys" take everything so personal-- stop it. It's not personal.

What i hate to see in my own breed group is PB breeders that are still selling "junk" to the misinformed buyer. To me, that is dishonest... and I won't do it--ever. Pick any sale you want in the last 12 to 24 months and what you will see --- often--- is "cull dumping".

Buyers go to a sale and have certain expectations of PB breeders in the form of integrity and honor; and sadly this is not being met in my eyes.

Our association has a table listed always available for the general public that shows what the average PB and Hybrid Simmental is ---- based on all the traits of economic importance. When the PB breeder offers cattle that are below the recognized standards-- those breeders aren't promoting our chosen breed to the best of their ability. Do you think this is a good thing to do>?

Since 90% of the bulls produced in any PB operation go to commercial cow/calf operations-- we should be supplying those people with our best--- not our below average cattle. By raising the best you can (which is higher than the mere average) -- we as PB breeders are then doing our part in improving the commercial cattle herds that purchase Simm and Simm influenced cattle.

The bottom line here is that if breeders are selling below average bulls and heifers to the production cow/calf operations across the country-- they are hindering everyone elses progress that do raise and offer their best.

thats it....

JS

I think my reputation can handle his bad mouthing if there was any.
He's probably I nice guy - just waaayyyy toooooo pushy & opinionated. Not that I'm either of those things :lol:

 

[TexasBred]

I think my reputation can handle his bad mouthing if there was any.
He's probably I nice guy - just waaayyyy toooooo pushy & opinionated. Not that I'm either of those things :lol:

numbers....lots of numbers....Jeanne you need to make longer posts and use lots of numbers. He%% it don't matter what they say...just use them. :lol2: :lol2:

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

TB - numbers are tools - and we can make numbers come out however we want them to - to our individual advantage. Does not mean we have good cattle.
Yes, I work with numbers - they are a very useful and important TOOL. But, the proof is in the pudding. I think I have shown a fair sampling of my "pudding".
Numbers are just a part of the equation.
JS - I understand that you are very enthusiastic about the Simmental breed & the SimmAngus cross - but you offend and turn off more people from ever getting interested in our breed.
Your blanket statement about PB breeders are selling below average bulls & heifers is ridiculous. Just because you were "almost" involved in a sale that had a lot of terrible cull cattle, does not mean that is what is being offered throughout the states. One bad breeder does not make up a breed.
And because cattle don't have the EPD's you think they should have does not make them culls. EPD's ARE A TOOL!!!