Composite bull on black cows ?
- Thread starter Med
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Med":3udod7h9 said:
so maybe you would focus on WW instead of YW since you are selling at weaning.
what colors are popular in you area at the sale barn?
i would say you answer is definitely Continental and probably simmental or charolais.
Most sales around here, the black cattle bring the most, but in some sales the white cattle are stronger. I guess it depends on who has the orders. It seems that the cattle cannot show to much 'ear' to bring the top dollar around here.You sre right about the weaning weight vs yearling.I have been considering trying a couple of hereford bulls for a round of breeding, just to see how gooe the black baldies would be. All this talk about composite breeding has put an interest in me considering the hybrid vigor thing.I know that whatever I try, if I am not happy, I can always put back the registered angus bulls back in and be right back where I am now.
DOC HARRIS
Well-known member
Well. - - - Capt. - -I am going to have to "Call" you on this one! I disagree with you 67% to 75% on staying away from composite bulls -IF the breed selection and the INDIVIDUAL mating selections are accomplished in a genetically correct manner! Composite animals are created to take advantage of breed complimentarity. Breed complimentarity refers to the production of a more desirable offspring, or progeny, by crossing breeds that are genetically different from each other, BUT have complimentary attributes. Breed complimentarity is the result of "Mixing and Matching" the mean breeding values of different biological types of breeds. It does NOT mean grabbing a bunch of different breeds of cattle, throwing them in a pasture and telling them to, "GO - and replenish the cattle world!"
Research at the Meat Animal Research Center (MARC) showed that heterosis is retained in composites even after SEVERAL generations of breeding. A 3 or 4 breed composite will maintain a 15% advantage in weight weaned per cow exposed over purebreds and will retain 67% or 75% (- -sound familiar ?- -) of total possible heterosis that is exhibited by the first cross progeny or cow. COMMERCIAL producers can use the same composite over several, perhaps many generations with positive results. HOWEVER, inbreeding should be avoided or hybrid vigor will be lost.
Several breed associations are now predicting EPD values on composite breeds. The Simmental and Gelbvieh Associations are providing genetic analyses on animals containing their breed. Other composite breeders (Such as Lee Leachman of Colorado and Bent Tree Cattle Companies) are hiring individuals to predict EPD values on their composite lines of cattle. The bottom line becomes choosing a composite animal just as important as choosing a purebred animal, and the same scrupulous attention and scrutiny and meticulous considerations must be employed in your breeding programs to be effectively profitable. It is NOT a "Shell Game" where you are guessing where the pea is hiding! It is just as important that you reduce the chance of misjudgement and error as it would be in selecting a Registered bull for a Registered herd!
Lee Leachman is holding a Seminar and Bull Sale on the 27th, 28th, and 29th of March where you can really see Heterosis and Composite Breeding in eye-popping action. The auction is being carried by Superior Auction, and I recommend your perusal for your advanced education! In the selection of Composite seedstock, it is critical that the performance information and EPD numbers are right and then evaluate the structure and disposition. Composites can really help solidify a commercial program, if they are managed properly! And it isn't difficult - just takes knowledge and care as it does with any other aspect of livestock production.
Med - with your location being in Tennessee I would assume that a lack of forage is not a problem such as might be encountered in West Texas or any current drought-stricken area, therefore my suggestion for you would be to survey the availability of composites, as mentioned above, and concentrate on the same traits and characteristics as you would if you were seeking a Registered bull for your future replacements. Homozygous Polled, of course, Homozygous Black if this is what your particular market demands, a 'comfortable' 50-50 mix of British and Continental breeding incorporating (for your Purebred Angus cows ) any of Gelbvieh, Simmental, Red Angus(Down the line from right now), Hereford with the up-to-date EPD's many are displaying today, and optimal phenotype to correct or protect your current cow herd's phenotypic balance. I would hesitate to incorporate Charolais, AT THIS TIME, inasmuch as their genome complimentarity has not been , in my opinion, satisfactorily researched to date to make any definitive statements regarding that breed's effectiveness as being a positive entity in composite breed blending. I think that, in the near future, Charolais will be well-accepted in the composite community, everything else being equal. Time will tell.
One last comment. Developing Composite breeding lines is NOT a passing fad! It is an exciting advancement in Beef Cattle breeding, just as the same principles were applied in the improvement in Poultry and Swine several years ago. As I have stated in many of these posts in the past - the success of ANY beef cattle project is dependent upon the correct factors being applied in it's development - scrupulous attention being given to the TOOLS of Phenotype, EPD's, BALANCE of selection for reproduction, growth and carcass traits and care in dove-tailing, if you will, with the producer's own present cow herd and their phenotypic and genotypic composition. Breeding composites is NOT taking a purebred bull of questionable traits and breeding him to mixed-blood mongrel cows and then expecting world-shaking results with the F1 progeny!
Read - study - and LEARN! That is the answer to most problems. Good luck to you Med. You can expect some exciting results in the future!! Composite breeding is a whole new world!
DOC HARRIS
Thanks for the reply Doc. Very informative in regards to my herd.I have been working on this herd of angus for about 15 years. I try to keep around 100 cows and have been rotating 10 to 15 heifers in and the old stuff out every year. By now I have a pretty good idea of the cow families that I want my replacements heifers to come from. I plan to continue using registered angus bulls on this group along with my heifers each year. A few years back, I decided to let the big boys sell the bulls and started to steer all my male calves. This is the part of my herd that I am seriously considering using a composite bull of some sort. Are there any composite bulls that hereford is a big part of the mix so much to throw the baldy calves on these angus cows ? I know I can get there with the pure blooded hereford bull, but what I am hearing the composite would be better in pounds per calf .
texbulldog
Well-known member
SPRINGER FARMS MURRAY GRE
Well-known member
la4angus":1ty73sit said:
How about a Murray Grey? ;-) :cboy:
