Commercial x Charolais

[stocky]

farmhand, when i get a young bull, i put him in a pen and feed him grain and get him used to me for a month or so before i turn him out. that may have something to do with why my bulls are gentle. cows and bulls are completely different and it might only be because of the way i handle them. each time i have had purebred cattle, after the first calf that they have for me, i end up getting rid of them. purebred dispositions have been high headed and difficult and they virtually never give enough milk to raise calves the size that my crossbreds raise. i know there are exceptions to these, but i have only owned the ones that are hard to work with and dont milk. as far as herefords go, i own and have owned some really fine hereford cross cows that raise huge calves out of charlois bulls. you have to be very selective to get milky herefords. i have not seen too much good luck with hereford bulls on white cows because the hereford bull tends to put too much depth in the calf and it has a deep belly and gets knocked alot of money when it is sold. the hereford cow and charlois bull will raise the top of the line yellow/white face calf. the calf will much more closely mirror it's father than its mother and that is why you can use smaller mixed cows that give milk to get a great calf if you use a charlois bull. to get the top of the line calf raiser, put a hereford bull with holstein cows-----but with holstein heifer baby calves worth 500-700 dollars, no one wants a beef bull with their holsteins right now

 

[greenwillowherefords]

That should depend on the phenotype of the particular Herf bull you choose.

 

[Farmhand]

That must be the difference. The only thing purebred here is the bull. Also we give a treat every couple of days to keep the cows coming to us to be checked instead of us having to go to them. Then we always walk in amoungst them to check so they are use to us when we work them. Next question - you have told me your opinion with herefords. What is your opinion with angus? I think I would have calving troubles with Char bull and Angus cow. Also think there could be breeding trouble as all the Char bulls I have seen have been really big. Wonder if cow could handle the weight. Also - different opinions for heifers versus cows?

 

[DOC HARRIS]

just to address two issues here. i have had charlois bulls with all my red based cows for over 10 years, and i keep from 7-9 charlois bulls all the time. i have never had a charlois bull with a bad disposition or one that had calving problems. over the years, i have had to sell many black angus bulls because they crawl through or push through and tear down fences, that is why i will never own another black bull unless it is just to breed some heifers and sell him. i have had to sell every limousin bull i have owned by the age of 5 because he wants to roam and fight, i have not been able to keep a hereford bull after 5 because of the fighting problem and the holstein and jersey bulls i have had tended to get mean and fight. my neighbors gelveigh bulls were constantly roaming, and that made it easy to talk him into going to charlois bulls, that and the extra 50-75 dollars per calf he got from charlois over gelveighs. charlois are the best disposition of any bull i have ever owned.
the other issue is the large framed cows. i strongly disagree about keeping those large framed cows. i like avg frame cows, around 1000 pounds, they are much easier to work with and eat far less feed and have far fewer feet and leg problems. avg frame cows are far easier to handle and doctor or move around for one person that the large flighty cows that are more difficult to control. my 900-1050 lb cows raise a 650 lb charlois cross calf every year and they dont eat me out of house and home. the majority of the large cows---purebred charlois, limousin, etc are large because they dont give as much milk. my cows put the weight on the calves and not on themselves.

Most (no- I would say all) successful Cow-calf cowmen agree with you, Stocky. Moderate framed cows have a lot going for them and the breeder!

 

[Crowderfarms]

Gee Caustic, Crowderfarms, and rwthereford, sorry I got you all ripped for askin'. I have multiple breeds in my cow herd. My Angus cows are smaller than my Hereford cows. My Hereford cows are smaller than my Charlais cows. I don't think my Angus cows would handle a Char bull very well. Smokey calves do very well here and I can get the same results with less work and worry going the Char cow x Angus bull route. I have never had a dead calf or a vet for a hard pull with this combination. Maybe I could have more money crossing the other way but maybe I would just be using that money to pay the vet or have no money 'cuz I lost the calf. Char cow x Angus bull seems more of a quarentee than the other. I select for disposition so do not have a problem there. I can work all the different breeds just as easy. My Angus bulls have all been as gentle as lambs. I am curious stocky as to why your Char bulls would have good dispositions but your Char cows are flighty. Just wondering. I am curious to as why everyone jumped on caustic about hereford when I asked him about angus? Knowing the size of my cows, I know that anything that will work on the Angus will work for all my other breeds. Anyway, sorry I got you all ripped for asking your OPINION.

Farmhand, I'm not ripped at all. My post was just an agreement with Caustic, on crossing Charolais with Herefords, or Angus. My operation is strictly Commercial Crosses, with Registered Bulls.

 

[rwtherefords]

I would recommend the larger frame cow(s) i.e. Charolais, limo, etc., be purchased. Then use an Angus or Hereford bull for your cross. The cows won't have any problem delivering a calf from a smaller BW producing bull. You get the same outcome without the calving risk.

I don't see why anyone would want to do it the other way around.

I don't see why anyone would want to do it your way. Why would you recommend that someone use a larger, less efficient cow when they have to feed 30 or 40 of those for every bull? Year around. In my opinion, efficiency in a cowherd is where profits (or losses) are determined. There are plenty of moderate-framed cows that can have an 80 or 90 pound calf like I get from Charolais bulls. If your Herefords can't do that, maybe you've got the wrong cows, not the wrong bulls.

So Texan, your rebuttal to my opinion seems to be saying there is no place for the Charolais cow in a commercial herd in your opinion. I don't see a noticable difference in the effeciency of the Charolais cow vs. others, but then again, I'm not in Texas where pasture isn't as plentiful. As far as the 80 - 90 pound Charolais cross calf goes, I haven't had that experience. Are you really running around the Texas ranch weighing each calf the day it is born? I know that each calf here gets weighed the day it's born, but I don't have the acreage to cover that a Texas operation would require. Anyway, My Hereford bulls calves average 82lbs. The heifers average 79lbs and the bulls average 86lbs. I also put my Hereford bull with my Charolais and get 98 - 102lb. bull calves. The difference between the highest weighing hereford bull calves of ~92lbs. and the Charolais cross bull calves of 98 - 102lbs. is 6 - 10lbs., which is very close to the Angus EPD adjustment table prediction (Charolais +7.1lbs over Herefords). Since I have so much data on my Hereford bull, I attribute the higher weighing calves in the Charolais crosses to the Charolais influence and it seems to be supported by the Angus association data as well.

Also, I've only had to pull 1 calf in the past 15 years and it was a Charolais cross. It was huge and the cow was unable to turn it for correct delivery.

Your previous post would have been just as effective without the slam against the Herefords. Yes, my Herefords can have 80 - 90 lb. calves just fine. If you're really getting 80 - 90 lb. calves from you Charolais bull, great! That's not what people get around here, and I was just sharing an opinion.

 

[stocky]

Farmhand, I have several black cows, they all are mixed and most have some dairy way back in the ancestry. most of these cows weigh from 900-1100 lbs and I have had no problem with the charlois bulls with those cows. they have not had trouble with the size of the charlois bulls and they usually get yellow calves because of the jersey dairy ancestry. I dont usually have the monster charlois bulls that alot of people have because I use the bull a little younger than most people and I calve year round so the bull isnt put up and fed and fattened. I just sold the biggest Charlois that I have ever had because he was 10 years old and was getting weak in one back leg. I was sick to sell him because I have sold the best calves I have ever had out of him, he was a dandy. He weighed 1830 lbs. and brought 77 1/2 cents. Most of my charlois will top out around 1600-1700 the way I use them. I also have these charlois bulls on my father's 90 white parks cows and those cows weigh from 850-1100 lbs and no problems.
I know alot of people that put a charlois bull with their black angus cows. I had been puzzled as to why the gray calves didnt bring as much, but now, they are bringing a much better price due to the buyers realizing they are angus-charlois cross. I am still not sold on that cross if the angus cow is near purebred. If you can find a real good black limousin bull, he will put good stretch on those calves, although they will be crazy. if you could find a really framy horned hereford bull, that would stretch those angus calves also. A framy black simmental could do wonders on those angus, as well. Those would all keep the calves black. I would like to see the gray charlois calves bring closer to blacks or yellows before I am totally sold on charlois bulls on black cows. Your question has puzzled me for years and as you can see, I still am not certain---sorry about not being able to give you a more definite answer

 

[stocky]

Farmhand, I forgot to answer your heifers vs cows question. First and foremost my goal is to get a live calf and healthy heifer after freshening. I would never use anything except an angus or a longhorn on heifers. With the angus, you get a much higher selling calf at weaning but it is still small enough that the heifer will usually not have problems. The problems with the angus would come in if you got one of these new, modern type angus that have much bigger calves. With the longhorn you always get a small and vigorous calf that will be up and sucking in 20 minutes or less. The only disadvantage of a longhorn is the price when you sell it and right now the 400 lb roper market is hot so that takes away alot of the disadvantage. I dont freshen out as many heifers as I once did, but I had good success with breeding the heifers young to a longhorn bull and freshen them out at 20-21 months and leave the calf on for 5 months and then let the heifers have extra time to grow---I got this idea from a study that I had read somewhere and it really worked well.

 

[stocky]

greenwillow, you are absolutely right about the phenotype of the hereford bull chosen, with the right one, it is a great combination

 

[certherfbeef]

I would recommend the larger frame cow(s) i.e. Charolais, limo, etc., be purchased. Then use an Angus or Hereford bull for your cross. The cows won't have any problem delivering a calf from a smaller BW producing bull. You get the same outcome without the calving risk.

I don't see why anyone would want to do it the other way around.

I don't see why anyone would want to do it your way. Why would you recommend that someone use a larger, less efficient cow when they have to feed 30 or 40 of those for every bull? Year around. In my opinion, efficiency in a cowherd is where profits (or losses) are determined. There are plenty of moderate-framed cows that can have an 80 or 90 pound calf like I get from Charolais bulls. If your Herefords can't do that, maybe you've got the wrong cows, not the wrong bulls.

So Texan, your rebuttal to my opinion seems to be saying there is no place for the Charolais cow in a commercial herd in your opinion. I don't see a noticable difference in the effeciency of the Charolais cow vs. others, but then again, I'm not in Texas where pasture isn't as plentiful.

rwtherefords suggestion is based soley on location, I think.

While talking with Campground this weekend, we both came to the same conclusion. My big framed 1500#+ herfs would melt in the texas heat if they didn't starve to death on the bahia grass first. His smaller framed 1200# herfs would freeze here. My grass is plentful. I run 5 pairs per acre. My cows are just as efficient as Camp's. Same breed different environment. Big cows take more feed, they also make more heat in the winter. they have to.
Texan is right too. Harder to feed 4 times as many big cows as it is to feed them char bulls whether you are in a drought or not. Environment plays a BIG role in your choice of breed and size of cow. I just didn't realize how big till just recentally.

 

[greenwillowherefords]

For a really framy horned Herf bull, see the Ochs Bros. website on another thread...I believe the one about Cert's heifer. Yeah, in my book they are too big, but there is a place for them.

 

[Texan]

I am curious to as why everyone jumped on caustic about hereford when I asked him about angus?

I mentioned Herefords to Caustic. Didn't consider it jumping on him and it didn't have anything to do with what you asked him. Do you remember the original question in this thread? About using Charolais bulls on commercial cows? I certainly don't mind it when posts stray from the original topic. But, I hope it's alright if I want to get back to it briefly. Caustic is the one that brought up Charolais disposition. I'm just trying to set the record straight about Charolais disposition. I chose to do it by making a comparison to what many on these Boards (myself included) consider the benchmark for good disposition---the Hereford cow. I'm sure that we all understand that there can be tremendous variations in disposition within a breed without using the disposition of an individual to condemn an entire breed.

Anyway, sorry I got you all ripped for asking your OPINION.

Nobody was 'ripped' here, Farmhand. We're all grownups, so surely we can have differences of opinion. Crowder said he didn't feel ripped. I haven't noticed Caustic whining any. I still can't figure out why rwtherefords is so upset with me. I disagreed with him. So what? His way is not the only way no more than mine is. And BTW, an OPINION is what I offered, as well. I assume it's okay with you for me to do that?

So Texan, your rebuttal to my opinion seems to be saying there is no place for the Charolais cow in a commercial herd in your opinion.

Didn't say that. Only that the Charolais cow is not necessarily the best way to get Charolais cross calves, in my opinion. Everyone should do what works for them in their environment. All I'm saying is that it is not necessary to build and maintain a bigger cowherd just to produce the desired results of yellow baldy or smokey calves. It seems to me as if some of you are saying that there's no place for English cows in a breeding program with Charolais bulls without having a cow-crippling, vet-enriching disaster. That's simply not true.

I don't see a noticable difference in the effeciency of the Charolais cow vs. others, but then again, I'm not in Texas where pasture isn't as plentiful.

Doesn't have anything to do with being in Texas. Moderate-framed English cow compared to a Continental cow? Are your Hereford cows the same size as your Charolais cross cows? Because mine sure as Hell aren't! If they're not, then isn't the Hereford cow a more efficient consumer of your resources, assuming that she will raise the same size crossbred calf as the larger framed cow? In my experience she will do just that. Are you trying to tell everyone that you don't believe that an English cow crossed with a Continental bull to produce a 650 pound calf is more efficient than a Continental cow crossed with an English bull to produce the same calf? I thought I had too many Continental cows gnawing 20-30% more grass than my moderate-framed cows, so I'm sure relieved to hear that!

As far as the 80 - 90 pound Charolais cross calf goes, I haven't had that experience. Are you really running around the Texas ranch weighing each calf the day it is born? I know that each calf here gets weighed the day it's born, but I don't have the acreage to cover that a Texas operation would require.

:lol2: Nope, I don't weigh any calves. I've got better ways to spend my mornings than running all over harassing baby calves and fighting mad cows. Are you trying to tell me that you weigh all of your crossbred calves? I guess you do because you stated the weights. That's admirable of you, but not necessary for most of us. Either a cow can have the calf or she can't. That's really all I need to know. But, I'll tell you this---if I ever get to the point that I can't look at a baby calf and tell within ten pounds of what it weighs, I'll call the auctioneer to come out and look at my stuff because it'll be time for me to get out of this business.

.....I attribute the higher weighing calves in the Charolais crosses to the Charolais influence and it seems to be supported by the Angus association data as well.

I believe you. I don't doubt that for one minute. Doesn't take a rocket scientist or the AAA computers to figure that one out. But, have you selected your Char X females for low birthweight and calving ease? I try to do that with Charolais bulls. Have you done it with your crossbred females?

Also, I've only had to pull 1 calf in the past 15 years and it was a Charolais cross. It was huge and the cow was unable to turn it for correct delivery.

Well, I honestly couldn't begin to count how many I've pulled in the past 15 years. But I know for a fact that I've pulled more Hereford calves than that. So what? Is that representative of the Hereford breed or me using poor selection within the breed?

Your previous post would have been just as effective without the slam against the Herefords.

Good grief! You sound like a crybaby! What 'slam' are you referring to? When I say they're more efficient? No, that wouldn't be a slam. When I mentioned that if your Hereford cows couldn't have 80 to 90 pound calves, you had the wrong cows? I said "if." Was that a 'slam?' When I say I've got one with a bad disposition? Maybe that's a 'slam?' Not okay for me to tell anybody that? Maybe I should clear it with the AHA first? Look, if I wanted to 'slam' Hereford cattle, we'd be talking about eyes, udders, teats and prolapses. Do you want to go there?

Yes, my Herefords can have 80 - 90 lb. calves just fine.

Great! I figured they could. I would expect them to be able to have 100+ pound calves. I'll say it again---you can consider this an opinion, you can consider it a 'slam' or whatever, but I consider it a fact.....if anybody has English cows (no matter what breed) that can't have an 80 to 90 pound calf like I get out of my Charolais bulls, then they have the wrong cows! Period!

.....I was just sharing an opinion.

That's what I was doing. I'll ask you the same question I asked Farmhand---Are you the only one that can have an opinion? Not okay for me to?

 

[Caustic Burno]

Dang Texan I poked a stick through the fence, whole pack dug under the fence.
I still prefer a Hereford or Bramer, dont like Cont's, thank goodness they are people that do, there is no perfect breed just what works best for your operation.

 

[Mahoney Pursley Ranch]

Looks like I opened a can of whoop azz here. At least there are a couple of people who have replied that know what they are talking about.

 

[ollie]

Are your Hereford cows the same size as your Charolais cross cows? Because mine sure as Hell aren't! If they're not, then isn't the Hereford cow a more efficient consumer of your resources, assuming that she will raise the same size crossbred calf as the larger framed cow??

I am going to hit and run on this thread. I personaly don't believe this statement gathers up all the variables. Smaller framed bigger volumed cows on my place are more efficient. It really doesn't matter what breed they are. I have some moderate big volumed exotics that are as efficient as anything in the industry. I also have the reverse. To me even weight doesn't tell the whole truth. One of the most efficient , easy keeping cows I ever owned probably weighed in excess of 1650. She usually weaned a very heavy calf. She was always was mud fat even on the toughest pasture. To me frame score and volume are the things I use to produce efficient mommas. Not any particular breed.Editing to clarify. USUALLY those moderate smaller framed cows are easier to find in english cattle. So don't get ripped at me too Texan. Good grief so much hate and anger.

 

[Mahoney Pursley Ranch]

Not hate and anger Ollie, just a cowman that knows what he's talking about.

 

[kpcattleco]

I am curious to as why everyone jumped on caustic about hereford when I asked him about angus?

I mentioned Herefords to Caustic. Didn't consider it jumping on him and it didn't have anything to do with what you asked him. Do you remember the original question in this thread? About using Charolais bulls on commercial cows? I certainly don't mind it when posts stray from the original topic. But, I hope it's alright if I want to get back to it briefly. Caustic is the one that brought up Charolais disposition. I'm just trying to set the record straight about Charolais disposition. I chose to do it by making a comparison to what many on these Boards (myself included) consider the benchmark for good disposition---the Hereford cow. I'm sure that we all understand that there can be tremendous variations in disposition within a breed without using the disposition of an individual to condemn an entire breed.

Anyway, sorry I got you all ripped for asking your OPINION.

Nobody was 'ripped' here, Farmhand. We're all grownups, so surely we can have differences of opinion. Crowder said he didn't feel ripped. I haven't noticed Caustic whining any. I still can't figure out why rwtherefords is so upset with me. I disagreed with him. So what? His way is not the only way no more than mine is. And BTW, an OPINION is what I offered, as well. I assume it's okay with you for me to do that?

So Texan, your rebuttal to my opinion seems to be saying there is no place for the Charolais cow in a commercial herd in your opinion.

Didn't say that. Only that the Charolais cow is not necessarily the best way to get Charolais cross calves, in my opinion. Everyone should do what works for them in their environment. All I'm saying is that it is not necessary to build and maintain a bigger cowherd just to produce the desired results of yellow baldy or smokey calves. It seems to me as if some of you are saying that there's no place for English cows in a breeding program with Charolais bulls without having a cow-crippling, vet-enriching disaster. That's simply not true.

I don't see a noticable difference in the effeciency of the Charolais cow vs. others, but then again, I'm not in Texas where pasture isn't as plentiful.

Doesn't have anything to do with being in Texas. Moderate-framed English cow compared to a Continental cow? Are your Hereford cows the same size as your Charolais cross cows? Because mine sure as Hell aren't! If they're not, then isn't the Hereford cow a more efficient consumer of your resources, assuming that she will raise the same size crossbred calf as the larger framed cow? In my experience she will do just that. Are you trying to tell everyone that you don't believe that an English cow crossed with a Continental bull to produce a 650 pound calf is more efficient than a Continental cow crossed with an English bull to produce the same calf? I thought I had too many Continental cows gnawing 20-30% more grass than my moderate-framed cows, so I'm sure relieved to hear that!

As far as the 80 - 90 pound Charolais cross calf goes, I haven't had that experience. Are you really running around the Texas ranch weighing each calf the day it is born? I know that each calf here gets weighed the day it's born, but I don't have the acreage to cover that a Texas operation would require.

:lol2: Nope, I don't weigh any calves. I've got better ways to spend my mornings than running all over harassing baby calves and fighting mad cows. Are you trying to tell me that you weigh all of your crossbred calves? I guess you do because you stated the weights. That's admirable of you, but not necessary for most of us. Either a cow can have the calf or she can't. That's really all I need to know. But, I'll tell you this---if I ever get to the point that I can't look at a baby calf and tell within ten pounds of what it weighs, I'll call the auctioneer to come out and look at my stuff because it'll be time for me to get out of this business.

.....I attribute the higher weighing calves in the Charolais crosses to the Charolais influence and it seems to be supported by the Angus association data as well.

I believe you. I don't doubt that for one minute. Doesn't take a rocket scientist or the AAA computers to figure that one out. But, have you selected your Char X females for low birthweight and calving ease? I try to do that with Charolais bulls. Have you done it with your crossbred females?

Also, I've only had to pull 1 calf in the past 15 years and it was a Charolais cross. It was huge and the cow was unable to turn it for correct delivery.

Well, I honestly couldn't begin to count how many I've pulled in the past 15 years. But I know for a fact that I've pulled more Hereford calves than that. So what? Is that representative of the Hereford breed or me using poor selection within the breed?

Your previous post would have been just as effective without the slam against the Herefords.

Good grief! You sound like a crybaby! What 'slam' are you referring to? When I say they're more efficient? No, that wouldn't be a slam. When I mentioned that if your Hereford cows couldn't have 80 to 90 pound calves, you had the wrong cows? I said "if." Was that a 'slam?' When I say I've got one with a bad disposition? Maybe that's a 'slam?' Not okay for me to tell anybody that? Maybe I should clear it with the AHA first? Look, if I wanted to 'slam' Hereford cattle, we'd be talking about eyes, udders, teats and prolapses. Do you want to go there?

Yes, my Herefords can have 80 - 90 lb. calves just fine.

Great! I figured they could. I would expect them to be able to have 100+ pound calves. I'll say it again---you can consider this an opinion, you can consider it a 'slam' or whatever, but I consider it a fact.....if anybody has English cows (no matter what breed) that can't have an 80 to 90 pound calf like I get out of my Charolais bulls, then they have the wrong cows! Period!

.....I was just sharing an opinion.

That's what I was doing. I'll ask you the same question I asked Farmhand---Are you the only one that can have an opinion? Not okay for me to?

As I sit here reading all these responses, I wonder how many of you actually make a living from your cattle. No outside jobs, no supplement income, husband and wife both working the farm and make a living at it. We actually run Charolais, Black Angus and Red Angus plus a commercial herd. We breed Charolais bulls to all of our commercial cows no matter what size except for the whites. We have 800 lb commercial cows that have Charolais X calves every year with no problem what so ever. We actually had more pulls from the Black Angus than we did the whites. The average birth weight on our Charolais calves is 80-85 lbs. If there is a cow on our place that cannot have that size calf then she does not need to be in a for-profit-only herd. When we have an angus calf that weighs 60 lbs I know that she is already 20-25 lbs behind. It is hard to play catch up in any business. We have one commercial herd of all whites and the Red Angus bulls work great on Charolais cows and that eliminates the rattail problem you get with the black. We raise all the cattle under the same programs, same feed, same mineral, same breeding. The Blacks actually require more attention to the feed and mineral program than the others especially during breeding season. Pound for pound, dollar for dollar the Charolais and Charolais X make us more in the pocket money than any of the others. Times have changed, cattle have changed. All breeds have their place, be that in a hobby herd, a part time farmer, a sideline cattleman, or be it in a herd where the animals actually have to pay their way and yours too. That is just my opinion for what it is worth but it comes from 30 years in the cattle business and being associated with all breeds, the good, the bad, and the ugly.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

I am curious to as why everyone jumped on caustic about hereford when I asked him about angus?

I mentioned Herefords to Caustic. Didn't consider it jumping on him and it didn't have anything to do with what you asked him. Do you remember the original question in this thread? About using Charolais bulls on commercial cows? I certainly don't mind it when posts stray from the original topic. But, I hope it's alright if I want to get back to it briefly. Caustic is the one that brought up Charolais disposition. I'm just trying to set the record straight about Charolais disposition. I chose to do it by making a comparison to what many on these Boards (myself included) consider the benchmark for good disposition---the Hereford cow. I'm sure that we all understand that there can be tremendous variations in disposition within a breed without using the disposition of an individual to condemn an entire breed.

Anyway, sorry I got you all ripped for asking your OPINION.

Nobody was 'ripped' here, Farmhand. We're all grownups, so surely we can have differences of opinion. Crowder said he didn't feel ripped. I haven't noticed Caustic whining any. I still can't figure out why rwtherefords is so upset with me. I disagreed with him. So what? His way is not the only way no more than mine is. And BTW, an OPINION is what I offered, as well. I assume it's okay with you for me to do that?

So Texan, your rebuttal to my opinion seems to be saying there is no place for the Charolais cow in a commercial herd in your opinion.

Didn't say that. Only that the Charolais cow is not necessarily the best way to get Charolais cross calves, in my opinion. Everyone should do what works for them in their environment. All I'm saying is that it is not necessary to build and maintain a bigger cowherd just to produce the desired results of yellow baldy or smokey calves. It seems to me as if some of you are saying that there's no place for English cows in a breeding program with Charolais bulls without having a cow-crippling, vet-enriching disaster. That's simply not true.

I don't see a noticable difference in the effeciency of the Charolais cow vs. others, but then again, I'm not in Texas where pasture isn't as plentiful.

Doesn't have anything to do with being in Texas. Moderate-framed English cow compared to a Continental cow? Are your Hereford cows the same size as your Charolais cross cows? Because mine sure as Hell aren't! If they're not, then isn't the Hereford cow a more efficient consumer of your resources, assuming that she will raise the same size crossbred calf as the larger framed cow? In my experience she will do just that. Are you trying to tell everyone that you don't believe that an English cow crossed with a Continental bull to produce a 650 pound calf is more efficient than a Continental cow crossed with an English bull to produce the same calf? I thought I had too many Continental cows gnawing 20-30% more grass than my moderate-framed cows, so I'm sure relieved to hear that!

As far as the 80 - 90 pound Charolais cross calf goes, I haven't had that experience. Are you really running around the Texas ranch weighing each calf the day it is born? I know that each calf here gets weighed the day it's born, but I don't have the acreage to cover that a Texas operation would require.

:lol2: Nope, I don't weigh any calves. I've got better ways to spend my mornings than running all over harassing baby calves and fighting mad cows. Are you trying to tell me that you weigh all of your crossbred calves? I guess you do because you stated the weights. That's admirable of you, but not necessary for most of us. Either a cow can have the calf or she can't. That's really all I need to know. But, I'll tell you this---if I ever get to the point that I can't look at a baby calf and tell within ten pounds of what it weighs, I'll call the auctioneer to come out and look at my stuff because it'll be time for me to get out of this business.

.....I attribute the higher weighing calves in the Charolais crosses to the Charolais influence and it seems to be supported by the Angus association data as well.

I believe you. I don't doubt that for one minute. Doesn't take a rocket scientist or the AAA computers to figure that one out. But, have you selected your Char X females for low birthweight and calving ease? I try to do that with Charolais bulls. Have you done it with your crossbred females?

Also, I've only had to pull 1 calf in the past 15 years and it was a Charolais cross. It was huge and the cow was unable to turn it for correct delivery.

Well, I honestly couldn't begin to count how many I've pulled in the past 15 years. But I know for a fact that I've pulled more Hereford calves than that. So what? Is that representative of the Hereford breed or me using poor selection within the breed?

Your previous post would have been just as effective without the slam against the Herefords.

Good grief! You sound like a crybaby! What 'slam' are you referring to? When I say they're more efficient? No, that wouldn't be a slam. When I mentioned that if your Hereford cows couldn't have 80 to 90 pound calves, you had the wrong cows? I said "if." Was that a 'slam?' When I say I've got one with a bad disposition? Maybe that's a 'slam?' Not okay for me to tell anybody that? Maybe I should clear it with the AHA first? Look, if I wanted to 'slam' Hereford cattle, we'd be talking about eyes, udders, teats and prolapses. Do you want to go there?

Yes, my Herefords can have 80 - 90 lb. calves just fine.

Great! I figured they could. I would expect them to be able to have 100+ pound calves. I'll say it again---you can consider this an opinion, you can consider it a 'slam' or whatever, but I consider it a fact.....if anybody has English cows (no matter what breed) that can't have an 80 to 90 pound calf like I get out of my Charolais bulls, then they have the wrong cows! Period!

.....I was just sharing an opinion.

That's what I was doing. I'll ask you the same question I asked Farmhand---Are you the only one that can have an opinion? Not okay for me to?

As I sit here reading all these responses, I wonder how many of you actually make a living from your cattle. No outside jobs, no supplement income, husband and wife both working the farm and make a living at it. We actually run Charolais, Black Angus and Red Angus plus a commercial herd. We breed Charolais bulls to all of our commercial cows no matter what size except for the whites. We have 800 lb commercial cows that have Charolais X calves every year with no problem what so ever. We actually had more pulls from the Black Angus than we did the whites. The average birth weight on our Charolais calves is 80-85 lbs. If there is a cow on our place that cannot have that size calf then she does not need to be in a for-profit-only herd. When we have an angus calf that weighs 60 lbs I know that she is already 20-25 lbs behind. It is hard to play catch up in any business. We have one commercial herd of all whites and the Red Angus bulls work great on Charolais cows and that eliminates the rattail problem you get with the black. We raise all the cattle under the same programs, same feed, same mineral, same breeding. The Blacks actually require more attention to the feed and mineral program than the others especially during breeding season. Pound for pound, dollar for dollar the Charolais and Charolais X make us more in the pocket money than any of the others. Times have changed, cattle have changed. All breeds have their place, be that in a hobby herd, a part time farmer, a sideline cattleman, or be it in a herd where the animals actually have to pay their way and yours too. That is just my opinion for what it is worth but it comes from 30 years in the cattle business and being associated with all breeds, the good, the bad, and the ugly.

KP - For your only being on the Q&A Board just today, you have great perception of how it functions. The Agriculturalists who comment on these "threads", as they say, comprise a tremendous cross-section of very experienced cattle breeders. I will admit that some appear a little tangential at times, however it has been my experience with MOST of them - they are informed, experienced, willing to help new breeders, and display a surprising array of ideas, suggestions, and helpful advice. Sometimes one must 'look through' the seemingly 'sharp' comments and understand the 'why' of their pungent terms. A few, perhaps, have been kicked in the groin today, and scratched by mesquite and cactus, while all the time fighting Fire ants in the care of their cattle. But, join in the discussions, and enjoy the banter! :lol: I determine from your bio that your years of experience will be of invaluable assistance to everyone who will listen and observe objectively! Welcome to the Board!

 

[Muratic]

Dang Texan I poked a stick through the fence, whole pack dug under the fence.

That was more than just a stick. You jacked them with a cattle prod.
Hope Mahoney is able to sort thru all the BS and find the answer or suggestion he was after.

If he has decided already, hope he is smart enough not to post his decision. :shock: :roll:

 

[ollie]

Not hate and anger Ollie, just a cowman that knows what he's talking about.

It was a joke Mahoney.