OP
OP
Mahoney Pursley Ranch
Well-known member
Thanks for all the varied replies. I respect each and every one of them. :cboy:
Commercial x Charolais
- Thread starter Mahoney Pursley Ranch
- Start date
Help Support CattleToday:
Texan
Well-known member
Caustic probably hasn't seen many modern Charolais cattle. I've got some polled Char bulls that have heads much like Angus heads. They just slip right out of a cow. I've pulled a couple of Brangus calves this year. Haven't pulled a Char calf all year. Biggest ones are in the 90-95 pound range. Some are even down in the 50's. Not rattails, either. Average is probably 80 pounds or so.Caustic Burno":3ls3bj3l said:
There are bad cattle in every breed. Non-conformers, outliers and knockouts. I can promise that you will like the Char calves at weaning time. If you want to wean 400 pound calves like Caustic does, why don't you just use a Jersey or Longhorn bull? That way you don't ever have to worry about calving problems. But, if you want your cows to earn their keep and raise a calf that will mash down the scales, the Chars will be hard to beat.
Bull Honky
Member
Texan, What do you mean by rattail? Is that generally bad, and why?
Thanks
Thanks
Jake
Well-known member
Bull Honky":1gtzf1w6 said:
short grey curly hair and little of no switch on the end of the tail. docked at sale time by $.10 or more.
OP
OP
Mahoney Pursley Ranch
Well-known member
Ok so explain to me why a tail that isn't right makes a lesser quality beef and costs you .10??
If youknow what you are doing, you can sort the good greys, from teh ones with the kinky, thin hair.
Basically, those thin haired ones have a hell of a time making it through the Winter and Spring mud in a feedlot. They burn up so much energy keeping warm, that the gains suffer.
But, my banker at home literally paid for his ranch buying the discount greys(the good ones) not the bad ones. Even teh bad ones do OK if you run them on grass over their 2nd summer, then feed them, they'll be dead before the bad weather hits.
mtnman
Basically, those thin haired ones have a hell of a time making it through the Winter and Spring mud in a feedlot. They burn up so much energy keeping warm, that the gains suffer.
But, my banker at home literally paid for his ranch buying the discount greys(the good ones) not the bad ones. Even teh bad ones do OK if you run them on grass over their 2nd summer, then feed them, they'll be dead before the bad weather hits.
mtnman
jerry27150
Well-known member
rattails are like frozen off ears they can rip you off for them & they know it
stocky
Well-known member
mahoney-----a calf or cow with a messed up tail sells for less because you have to wholesale them----everyone knows you cant RE-TAIL them---lol. just kidding----it is like was said before----they know they can rip you off, so they do----any excuse to discount
DOC HARRIS
Well-known member
Well - here we go again - running into our old friend "Semantics (the meaning of language or words).Mahoney Pursley Ranch":axzbk5a7 said:
What do you mean by saying "- - -a commercial cow herd"? Of what is this 'commercial cow herd" composed? A Duke's mixture of Hereford, Angus, Jersey, Holstein, Simmental, Limousin, Gelpvieh, - - - -Gosh - maybe even a bit of Watusi thrown in there for a "Front Pasture" picture of HORNS - - (which should be an interesting show when they are run through a squeeze chute for ear tagging and other good Herd Management Practices)! What is the average Birth EPD's of your 'commercial' cow herd? Or, more importantly, what percentage of your commercial cows can successfully calve, unassisted, bred to " a Charolais bull"? Just ANY Charolais bull? Or one with a desirable birth EPD which will help guarantee a live calf crop?? Or are we back to playing "Guessing Games" again? :roll: If you breed your 'unknown quality' commercial cows to some bull because he is 'down the road a piece" you are liable to end up out in left field somewhere. My suggestion to you would be - determine what you wish to accomplish in the Beef BUSINESS (because it is a BUSINESS), set your goals toward that end, and THEN establish your breeding plans to fit those goals. Just some thoughts.
DOC HARRIS
Well-known member
Absolutely Correct! No argument on that point!MikeC":3befm10c said:
stocky
Well-known member
"A Duke's mixture of Hereford, Angus, Jersey, Holstein, Simmental, Limousin, Gelpvieh, - - - -Gosh - maybe even a bit of Watusi thrown in there for a "Front Pasture" picture of HORNS"
Doc, i got a good laugh out of that statement for the reason that i have mixed beef cows and there is a little of every breed that you mentioned except for gelveigh--wont have one of those. then i really got a laugh when you mentioned watusi because my dad decided he HAD to have some of them out by the road, so we now have 5 watusi cows and 5 springer watusi heifers and 2 watusi bulls----you hit our nail right on the head----lol. sounds like you been driving around in my neck of the woods---lol
if you are going to raise and sell feeder calves, you cant beat charlois bulls on red base cows, red base bulls on pure white cows, and black bulls on every other color to get either black or yellow calves to top the market---IMHO
Doc, i got a good laugh out of that statement for the reason that i have mixed beef cows and there is a little of every breed that you mentioned except for gelveigh--wont have one of those. then i really got a laugh when you mentioned watusi because my dad decided he HAD to have some of them out by the road, so we now have 5 watusi cows and 5 springer watusi heifers and 2 watusi bulls----you hit our nail right on the head----lol. sounds like you been driving around in my neck of the woods---lol
if you are going to raise and sell feeder calves, you cant beat charlois bulls on red base cows, red base bulls on pure white cows, and black bulls on every other color to get either black or yellow calves to top the market---IMHO
greenwillowherefords
Well-known member
houstoncutter":2ch5mm6t said:
If cross the breeds EPDs are true, Charolais do not have that much advantage. No offense intended, but say what you want, at our purebred Hereford operation, without creep, we are weaning a lot heavier than 400 pound calves on some pretty poor pasture. A 400# calf here would be a serious disappointment and a cull. Of course, it depends on how young you are weaning. I'm talking official 205 day weights. Sure I'm pressing for heavier weaning weights while trying to pull the BW down. With that in mind, I purchased this winter a bull with a 70# BW and an actual 188 day weaning weight of 740. His adjusted 205 is 803#.
What I am getting at is that there are performance bloodlines within every breed that defy stereotypes, and the average modern Hereford might surprise you. I have family who've been breeding commercial cattle for 40 years. The base of the herd is Hereford and Angus. There was one Limi in the 80's, and one Brangus in the 90's. They have been weaning calves out of Angus and Hereford bulls that go up into the 650# range on a regular basis, with the bottom end at around 500. They do not creep. I am personally not opposed to some Char influence in a commercial herd if you don't have calving trouble.
Caustic - I agree with you about not using Char bull. My question is - what do you think about Char cow being bred to Angus bull? Around here it seems that a Char looking calf with a black hide does real well. Both in performance and in price. I like the looks of these calves. Too afraid of having bad pulls if using Char bull. Am interested in your opinion.
Caustic Burno
Well-known member
Farmhand":1530smn3 said:
Chars are good cattle with great growth, the pallet heads of the seventies have pretty much disappeared. The Char people have made some big improvements over the last thirty years. The char crosses sell extremely well here they love those smoky colored calves. The bigest problem I have with Char bulls today is disposition. Farmhand it wouldn't upset me a bit to have a pasture full of Chars with a good Hereford or Angus bull on them.
Crowderfarms
Well-known member
Caustic, you know what you're talking about...We Bought a Hereford bull not long ago, and have several Charolais cows, they have good dispositions, and I can't wait to see what their calves will look like.Calves last year were out of our Beefmaster Bull, and talk about color combinations, you're liable to get anything..Caustic Burno":ac960zsc said:
rwtherefords
Well-known member
I would recommend the larger frame cow(s) i.e. Charolais, limo, etc., be purchased. Then use an Angus or Hereford bull for your cross. The cows won't have any problem delivering a calf from a smaller BW producing bull. You get the same outcome without the calving risk.
I don't see why anyone would want to do it the other way around.
I don't see why anyone would want to do it the other way around.
OP
OP
Mahoney Pursley Ranch
Well-known member
Laugh if ya will. I'll be laughing on my way to the bank!DOC HARRIS":30v4och8 said:
Texan
Well-known member
Caustic Burno":30nu86x0 said:
Maybe he does sometimes, Crowder. Maybe even most of the time. But not in this case. I've got a Hereford cow that has a lot worse disposition than any Charolais bull I've got. I don't really have a dog in this fight. I don't care if anybody every buys a Charolais bull. In fact, the less demand there is for 'em, the cheaper they will be for me. But we need to be honest with people here about them.Crowderfarms":30nu86x0 said:
I'm sure I haven't seen as many Charolais cattle as Caustic, but I sure haven't seen the dispostion problems he talks about in Char bulls or their calves. In fact, I think my wife would object to his characterization. She considers them some of the easiest handling bulls we've ever owned. Maybe she's just a little tougher than Caustic?
I don't see why anyone would want to do it your way. Why would you recommend that someone use a larger, less efficient cow when they have to feed 30 or 40 of those for every bull? Year around. In my opinion, efficiency in a cowherd is where profits (or losses) are determined. There are plenty of moderate-framed cows that can have an 80 or 90 pound calf like I get from Charolais bulls. If your Herefords can't do that, maybe you've got the wrong cows, not the wrong bulls.rwtherefords":30nu86x0 said:
stocky
Well-known member
just to address two issues here. i have had charlois bulls with all my red based cows for over 10 years, and i keep from 7-9 charlois bulls all the time. i have never had a charlois bull with a bad disposition or one that had calving problems. over the years, i have had to sell many black angus bulls because they crawl through or push through and tear down fences, that is why i will never own another black bull unless it is just to breed some heifers and sell him. i have had to sell every limousin bull i have owned by the age of 5 because he wants to roam and fight, i have not been able to keep a hereford bull after 5 because of the fighting problem and the holstein and jersey bulls i have had tended to get mean and fight. my neighbors gelveigh bulls were constantly roaming, and that made it easy to talk him into going to charlois bulls, that and the extra 50-75 dollars per calf he got from charlois over gelveighs. charlois are the best disposition of any bull i have ever owned.
the other issue is the large framed cows. i strongly disagree about keeping those large framed cows. i like avg frame cows, around 1000 pounds, they are much easier to work with and eat far less feed and have far fewer feet and leg problems. avg frame cows are far easier to handle and doctor or move around for one person that the large flighty cows that are more difficult to control. my 900-1050 lb cows raise a 650 lb charlois cross calf every year and they dont eat me out of house and home. the majority of the large cows---purebred charlois, limousin, etc are large because they dont give as much milk. my cows put the weight on the calves and not on themselves.
the other issue is the large framed cows. i strongly disagree about keeping those large framed cows. i like avg frame cows, around 1000 pounds, they are much easier to work with and eat far less feed and have far fewer feet and leg problems. avg frame cows are far easier to handle and doctor or move around for one person that the large flighty cows that are more difficult to control. my 900-1050 lb cows raise a 650 lb charlois cross calf every year and they dont eat me out of house and home. the majority of the large cows---purebred charlois, limousin, etc are large because they dont give as much milk. my cows put the weight on the calves and not on themselves.
Gee Caustic, Crowderfarms, and rwthereford, sorry I got you all ripped for askin'. I have multiple breeds in my cow herd. My Angus cows are smaller than my Hereford cows. My Hereford cows are smaller than my Charlais cows. I don't think my Angus cows would handle a Char bull very well. Smokey calves do very well here and I can get the same results with less work and worry going the Char cow x Angus bull route. I have never had a dead calf or a vet for a hard pull with this combination. Maybe I could have more money crossing the other way but maybe I would just be using that money to pay the vet or have no money 'cuz I lost the calf. Char cow x Angus bull seems more of a quarentee than the other. I select for disposition so do not have a problem there. I can work all the different breeds just as easy. My Angus bulls have all been as gentle as lambs. I am curious stocky as to why your Char bulls would have good dispositions but your Char cows are flighty. Just wondering. I am curious to as why everyone jumped on caustic about hereford when I asked him about angus? Knowing the size of my cows, I know that anything that will work on the Angus will work for all my other breeds. Anyway, sorry I got you all ripped for asking your OPINION.
