colour question about black skin

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ANAZAZI

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If I breed a black skin bull to diluter cow, can this in any way take the black from nose and eyes? Or is there any other gene that can stop the black, wich I thought to be dominant over light skin. Yes the bull is supposed to be homozygous for this trait.
 

Jeanne - Simme Valley

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If the bull is homozygous black - all his offspring will be black factored. But, if bred to a cow homozygous for the diluter gene, all the offspring will be diluted. If bred to a cow that is heterozygous for the diluter gene, than it's a 50/50 chance, depending on whether she passes the diluter gene or not.
You can also take the homoz bull & breed him to white face cows (like Herefords) and most if not all the offspring will have the white face.
 
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ANAZAZI

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I am talking strictly about skin colour here and not colour of hair.
There are breeds where all cows have black noses and breeds where there are only pink noses.
Does any one know if blach or pink is the dominant allele? I thought it was black nose was dominant over pink,
So I assume that for ex f1 angus crosses always have black nose, is this true?
 

Jeanne - Simme Valley

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Yes, that is true UNLESS they are bred to a white face, producing a white face animal. Pink skin goes along with the white face. Now, some may have pink noses & some may have black, depending if the white face is a full white face or just partial white (like a blazed-face)
Here's one, you can see pink around the nose on the outside under the white, but the nose is black on this one. We have some with pink noses.
3-09_Calves_P6S__calf_pix.jpg


Calf with partial pink & partial black:
3-09_Calves_R9W_2_pix.jpg


Calf with mostly pink nose.
3-09_Calves_RT9W_red_pix.jpg


But, without the white face, I believe the first cross using a solid black bull, will produce the black nose.
 

redcowsrule33

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There are different genes depending on breed. Jeanne did a good job on the Angus/whiteface. But if you are dealing with a breed with black points like White Park or Speckle Park I don't know what the outcome would be crossed on, say, a hereford. I'm sure someone out there could enlighten us on that one.
 

randiliana

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redcowsrule33":1n96nax3 said:
There are different genes depending on breed. Jeanne did a good job on the Angus/whiteface. But if you are dealing with a breed with black points like White Park or Speckle Park I don't know what the outcome would be crossed on, say, a hereford. I'm sure someone out there could enlighten us on that one.

Skin color is related to coat color, that is base coat color.

Red cows have reddish/brownish skin(not truly pink)

Notice the eye pigment of this calf, partly pink (white hair) and partly brownish(red haired)
View attachment 1

Pink skin will be under white haired areas, most especially in spotted areas, say white faced, color sided pattern (white park, longhorn), spotted (shorthorn, simmental)

This link shows some White Park cattle, areas where they have black hair is black skinned and areas where the hair is white is pink skinned.
http://whitecattle.org/2006%20KILE.htm

and of course, black skin will be under black haired areas


If you crossed a White Park with a hereford, you would get a white faced animal with white down the back and belly and dark sides (could be solid, could be roaned or could be spotted)
 

CKC1586

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I am not even going to pretend to understand the genetics of hair coat/color etc. But the Piedmontese have black skin but a light (from fawn to white to gray) hair coat. I have no idea how that black skin pigment would be passed on but would expect that it would have to in some capacity.
 

Jeanne - Simme Valley

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Yes, it is not "black and white" - so to speak. There are numerous genes involved in coat/skin color. Like the original fullblood Chianinas. They have white hair & black skin. Go figure.
But, as Chris explained, that is the "normal" color pattern. White hair, pink skin - black hair, black skin. But then, you have to add in specific breed genes that dominate the "normal" pattern.
Totally confused???
 

CKC1586

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Jeanne - Simme Valley":34yl56tr said:
Yes, it is not "black and white" - so to speak. There are numerous genes involved in coat/skin color. Like the original fullblood Chianinas. They have white hair & black skin. Go figure.
But, as Chris explained, that is the "normal" color pattern. White hair, pink skin - black hair, black skin. But then, you have to add in specific breed genes that dominate the "normal" pattern.
Totally confused???
Well, yes and no. All the genetic talk is confusing.
But the Pieds have black skin and light hair, the bottom of the bulls scrotum will be black.
The White Parks have black noses and the teats are black tipped. Very striking looking animals!
I don't think I have ever seen a fullblood Chianinas. But obviously there are several breeds with the contrast in skin vs hair. So the pink skin = white hair thing ain't necessarily so. :?
 

randiliana

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Jeanne - Simme Valley":2sl7sr08 said:
Well, CKC, pink skin, white hair - black skin, black hair is actuall the NORMAL. Than, the "normal" is changed by other genes that are breed specific - I THINK!!! Yes, very complicated.

This is very true. There are several different dilution genes out there that act in different ways. Of course there is the 'normal' dilutions that most of us are used to, the Charolais type and the Simmental/Gelbveih type that look similar and act smilarly. There are other dilution genes that are not well understood. Brahman, Chianina, Brown Swiss, Jersey, Piedmontese, Guernsey and several other breeds carry other dilution genes. How many different ones there are is not really known yet, and how they work isn't really well understood either. Some of them only remove red pigment, this is seen in Chianina. Others remove more pigment in certain areas such as the dorsal strip or belly, while still lighteneing the rest of the body.
 

Jeanne - Simme Valley

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The Charolais "diluter" gene is also a "remover" (or they carry both). Charolais cattle are actually RED with homozygous diluter - remover genes.
Genetics is so much fun. I really do enjoy it. But, it's challenging enough just learning all the combinations within my own breed (Simmental) without trying to remember all the others.
 

TheBullLady

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lol.. trying to figure out the color thing has always been an issue with me! We have gray Brahmans, and they have black skin. *sigh*...
 
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ANAZAZI

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If I mate a solid red cow with no black skin to a brahma, black skin bull my calf will be red with black skin,
or if breed same cow to angus bull, calf will be black with black skin.
And if this calf has no black skin it is not from either sire but rather from my mongrel neighbors polled charolais bull?
 

ctinc

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What if you have a tannish red cow with a pink nose and she is breed to a Char. bull and the calf has a black nose. How is that possible?
 

Jeanne - Simme Valley

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Might be the wrong sire?
Specific "places" of color are tricky - lots of genes get involved.
I have had red cattle with mostly black ears, black around the eyes, black hair on sides of tail & in switch, black hairs on insides of legs - with absolutely no black pedigree. (Strickly AI, and before we ever put a black sire in our tank - no, no neighbors with bulls).
 
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