Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
:lol: :lol: you got me -ALL red cattle are Homozygous RED!!! if they didn't have both red genes, they wouldn't be red!Cattleman200":ra46fxh9 said:
Color question
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alacattleman
Well-known member
now im confused :cowboy:Jeanne - Simme Valley":2m3zsbzh said:
Cattleman200
Well-known member
Re: Color question
by Jeanne - Simme Valley on Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:29 pm
Cattleman200 wrote:
You can have a Homo Black or Homo Red bull carrying the spotting gene produce hundreds of calves WITHOUT 1 spot
I have never heard of a homo red bull.
Circle H Ranch
you got me -ALL red cattle are Homozygous RED!!! if they didn't have both red genes, they wouldn't be red!
Jeanne, that simply cannot be true. Yes they are red but if you breed them to a homo black animal the resulting calf will be black. I agree if they are red and both may have the red gene but they cannot be homo red. If you use that theory to determine homozygous animals you would be in trouble. I have bred two black animals several times and got a red calf. It happens all the time in Limousin and Simmental cattle. In that situation instead of me saying both animals are black , therefore they both have to be homo black when in fact neither animal is homo black or the calf could not be red.
Circle H Ranch
by Jeanne - Simme Valley on Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:29 pm
Cattleman200 wrote:
You can have a Homo Black or Homo Red bull carrying the spotting gene produce hundreds of calves WITHOUT 1 spot
I have never heard of a homo red bull.
Circle H Ranch
you got me -ALL red cattle are Homozygous RED!!! if they didn't have both red genes, they wouldn't be red!
Jeanne, that simply cannot be true. Yes they are red but if you breed them to a homo black animal the resulting calf will be black. I agree if they are red and both may have the red gene but they cannot be homo red. If you use that theory to determine homozygous animals you would be in trouble. I have bred two black animals several times and got a red calf. It happens all the time in Limousin and Simmental cattle. In that situation instead of me saying both animals are black , therefore they both have to be homo black when in fact neither animal is homo black or the calf could not be red.
Circle H Ranch
OP
OP
hillsdown
Well-known member
Can there be homo red , that must be possible. But what happens when you breed a homo red to a homo blk, will the calf be blk because blk is dominant.
This is why I leave these things for others to figure out, I have a headache now. :roll:
This is why I leave these things for others to figure out, I have a headache now. :roll:
DavisBeefmasters
Well-known member
hillsdown":37s1c59o said:
Yes, agreed to this statement.
alacattleman
Well-known member
that would be my surmisehillsdown":6fvm49aq said:
randiliana
Well-known member
Lets start out with this.
For every trait, there are 2 genes that represent it, they are located at different Loci (or locations in the DNA)
For example, base color is located at one loci, dilution at another and spots at another, etc. There may be several different genes that might be found at each loci, or only a few. But there is only room for 2 gene at each loci in any one animal.
Homozygous (homo) means that 2 copies of the same gene are present at a given Loci.
Heterozygous (hetero) means that 1 copy of one gene (dominant) and 1 copy of another gene(recessive) are present at a given Loci.
Dominant means that a gene will cover up other genes, and that it only takes 1 copy of such a gene to express the appearance. A dominant gene is written as a capital letter (E)
Recessive means that a gene requires 2 copies of the same gene for the trait to be expressed. When only one copy of the gene is present it is 'hidden'. A recessive gene is written as a small letter (e)
For the sake of black and red...
Homo black is written as EE
Hetero black is written as Ee
and
Red is written as ee. Red is ALWAYS homo
Any animal that is red is HOMOZYGOUS for the red gene. Red is a recessive trait, that means that it will only show up when the animal carries 2 genes for red.
Black is a dominant color, this means that if an animal carries 1 gene for black, it will BE black. This is how you get red calves out of 2 black parents. Both parents are Heterozygous for black (and for red) each parent will pass on the black gene 50% of the time and the red gene 50% of the time. If they both happen to pass on the red gene at the same time, you will get a red calf. If they both pass on the black gene you get a homo black calf and if one passes on red and the other black, you get a heterozygous 'black' calf.
Here is how it works out by the numbers
Ee x Ee = EE, Ee, Ee, ee
EE = 25%
Ee = 50%
ee = 25%
For every trait, there are 2 genes that represent it, they are located at different Loci (or locations in the DNA)
For example, base color is located at one loci, dilution at another and spots at another, etc. There may be several different genes that might be found at each loci, or only a few. But there is only room for 2 gene at each loci in any one animal.
Homozygous (homo) means that 2 copies of the same gene are present at a given Loci.
Heterozygous (hetero) means that 1 copy of one gene (dominant) and 1 copy of another gene(recessive) are present at a given Loci.
Dominant means that a gene will cover up other genes, and that it only takes 1 copy of such a gene to express the appearance. A dominant gene is written as a capital letter (E)
Recessive means that a gene requires 2 copies of the same gene for the trait to be expressed. When only one copy of the gene is present it is 'hidden'. A recessive gene is written as a small letter (e)
For the sake of black and red...
Homo black is written as EE
Hetero black is written as Ee
and
Red is written as ee. Red is ALWAYS homo
Any animal that is red is HOMOZYGOUS for the red gene. Red is a recessive trait, that means that it will only show up when the animal carries 2 genes for red.
Black is a dominant color, this means that if an animal carries 1 gene for black, it will BE black. This is how you get red calves out of 2 black parents. Both parents are Heterozygous for black (and for red) each parent will pass on the black gene 50% of the time and the red gene 50% of the time. If they both happen to pass on the red gene at the same time, you will get a red calf. If they both pass on the black gene you get a homo black calf and if one passes on red and the other black, you get a heterozygous 'black' calf.
Here is how it works out by the numbers
Ee x Ee = EE, Ee, Ee, ee
EE = 25%
Ee = 50%
ee = 25%
alacattleman
Well-known member
something still aint clicking yet, guess im gonna have too do some more studying
alacattleman
Well-known member
the part that any animal that is red is homozygous for the red gene when there are black and red carriers that are red.. '' but ''' this may be were im seeing it wrong ..... edit i think it sinking indun":38veij1e said:
There are NO black carriers that are red. But there are red carriers that are black (heterozygous). 2 red genes will not produce black. The balck and red thing works just like polled and horned. 1 polled gene and the animal is polled, it takes 2 horn genes to be horned and 2 red genes to be red.alacattleman":1fiizbvz said:
alacattleman
Well-known member
What part doesn;t click?[/quote] the part that any animal that is red is homozygous for the red gene when there are black and red carriers that are red.. '' but ''' this may be were im seeing it wrong[/quote]
There are NO black carriers that are red. But there are red carriers that are black (heterozygous). 2 red genes will not produce black. The balck and red thing works just like polled and horned. 1 polled gene and the animal is polled, it takes 2 horn genes to be horned and 2 red genes to be red.[/quote] i see thats the part that was sinking in,,,, slowly... i thought i had a fair handle on the color thing
There are NO black carriers that are red. But there are red carriers that are black (heterozygous). 2 red genes will not produce black. The balck and red thing works just like polled and horned. 1 polled gene and the animal is polled, it takes 2 horn genes to be horned and 2 red genes to be red.[/quote] i see thats the part that was sinking in,,,, slowly... i thought i had a fair handle on the color thing
Cattleman200
Well-known member
For the sake of black and red...
Homo black is written as EE
Hetero black is written as Ee
and
Red is written as ee. Red is ALWAYS homo
Ok Randi you and Jeanne are both correct and Randi is correct with the dictionary definition of homozygous. However in a real world cattle operation it would be redundant to say an animal is Homozygous red. Most cattle people think in terms of a homozygous black or homozygous red getting calves that all all black or red. You could never get any mileage to market a bull or female as Homo red because you can never guarantee calves out of a homo red animal to all be red.
Circle H Ranch
Homo black is written as EE
Hetero black is written as Ee
and
Red is written as ee. Red is ALWAYS homo
Ok Randi you and Jeanne are both correct and Randi is correct with the dictionary definition of homozygous. However in a real world cattle operation it would be redundant to say an animal is Homozygous red. Most cattle people think in terms of a homozygous black or homozygous red getting calves that all all black or red. You could never get any mileage to market a bull or female as Homo red because you can never guarantee calves out of a homo red animal to all be red.
Circle H Ranch
alacattleman
Well-known member
thats pretty much a gamble any way. guess a seller has got to be confident after years of breeding themCattleman200":34cjd4kk said:
kenny thomas
Well-known member
Thanks to all. So Jeanne, how do I know if the bulls carry the spot gene, or do I just need to know the bloodlines better if some bloodlines carry the spot gene?
randiliana
Well-known member
kenny thomas":2454y8tt said:
You'd need to know the bloodlines, and probably quite a bit of trial and error. If an animal is a carrier there is a 50% chance that they would pass on the spot gene.
The best way to tell if a bull carried the spotting gene would be to breed him to several cows that ARE spotted. If they all had solid calves you could be pretty certain that the bull didn't carry the spotting gene. If even one had a spotted calf you would know he also carried the spotting gene.
kenny thomas
Well-known member
randi, what you say will work but I sure don't want to buy bulls and have to use them just to find out they are not what I want. I am going to have to study this further.
Might just go back to Charolais. At least they will sell as Char X no matter even if they have some light spots.
Might just go back to Charolais. At least they will sell as Char X no matter even if they have some light spots.
randiliana
Well-known member
Oh, I know what you're saying. That's part of the reasons that color genetics interest me. By knowing how they work, I know how to stay away from certain colors/patterns. We're in the commercial business, color of the calf has a lot to do with the price we get for them at sale time.
kenny thomas
Well-known member
I am commercial also but I do buy good registered bulls. This year I had two 1/2 sister cows bred to the same Black Simmy bull and one had a solid black calf and the other a very spotted calf. They were 3/4 sisters, almost the same size at sale time and there was about $.12 difference in price. Really hurts the profit margin.
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
Kenny - yes pedigrees help tell you if the bull is going to be a spot carrier. In the "Fullblood Simmental" herds, you can pretty well PLAN on getting spots. In the Purebred herds, it is so frowned upon (for exactly the same reason you said - $$$$), so AI bulls get a reputation in a hurry if they carry the spotting gene - like DICE, he's solid black, but he throws spots.
People don't refer to REDS as homo (like I did) - but if you are involved with learning genetics - it's a given. When "black" became popular in our breed, you would see ads about a "red" cow/or bull, saying, he/she's carrying the black gene, because they are out of black parents - WRONG!!! no black genes in a RED cow/bull, even if they are out of both black parents.
Randi - great explaination - saved me all that typing!!!
People don't refer to REDS as homo (like I did) - but if you are involved with learning genetics - it's a given. When "black" became popular in our breed, you would see ads about a "red" cow/or bull, saying, he/she's carrying the black gene, because they are out of black parents - WRONG!!! no black genes in a RED cow/bull, even if they are out of both black parents.
Randi - great explaination - saved me all that typing!!!
