Color question

[hillsdown]

If an all black Purebred cow is bred to a homo blk purebred bull is there anyway that the resulting calf could have white on the belly ?

The blk cow always has blk calves every year, even when bred to a red bull, there is never any white on them.

Thanks.

 

[LoveMoo11]

I am not very good with genetics and that kind of thing, but I have had purebred Angus come out with a little white on the udder or back part of the belly. To my knowledge, this is accepted by the AA association as long as the white is not in front of the navel, above the stomach line, or on the legs.

 

[hillsdown]

What I am really wonderimg about LM is about the homo blk. I thought that meant that whatever you bred him to it would come out all blk unless the cow carried the diluter gene and then the calf would be maybe grey. :?

Help please randiliana.. :help:

 

[alacattleman]

I am not very good with genetics and that kind of thing, but I have had purebred Angus come out with a little white on the udder or back part of the belly. To my knowledge, this is accepted by the AA association as long as the white is not in front of the navel, above the stomach line, or on the legs.

im not very good at believing papers... i bred a homo black bull to red cows and never had a ounce of white all were solid coal black,,, and these were braford and simbrah cows

 

[Frankie]

If an all black Purebred cow is bred to a homo blk purebred bull is there anyway that the resulting calf could have white on the belly ?

The blk cow always has blk calves every year, even when bred to a red bull, there is never any white on them.

Thanks.

I forget whether Purebred or Fullblood is bred up? I'm not sure that you can find anyone that will guarantee that a calf won't have some white on them. There are several Angus bulls known to sire calves with some white. But as long as it's behind the navel, it's not a problem. And it has to be white SKIN to be illegal; white hairs are acceptable.

Did you look the previous calves over from stem to stern? It's not all that unusual for us to see a white spot on the udder or scrotal area of an otherwise black registered Angus calf while we're weighing and tagging them. But just walking around the pasture, you'd never see it.

 

[hillsdown]

No they were all completely never any white spots. I handle all calves as soon as they are born to tag and weigh etc. I guess I need to look up more about homo blks and if the spotted gene. I wonder how many of his calves ended up with blk spots on them ? Just curious as he was an expensive semen bull and quite popular. I am also going to dna the calf .

Full blood means 100% purebred can be 94% and can be bred up. I guess I had better pull up Ozz ideal direction's pedigree again and see just what is in there. Sucks, I was really excited about using this bull but not if his calves are going to have white on them , my bull customers do not want any white spots on their bulls and heifers with white spots are hard to market around here too.

 

[fargus]

If an all black Purebred cow is bred to a homo blk purebred bull is there anyway that the resulting calf could have white on the belly ?

The blk cow always has blk calves every year, even when bred to a red bull, there is never any white on them.

Thanks.

I forget whether Purebred or Fullblood is bred up? I'm not sure that you can find anyone that will guarantee that a calf won't have some white on them. There are several Angus bulls known to sire calves with some white. But as long as it's behind the navel, it's not a problem. And it has to be white SKIN to be illegal; white hairs are acceptable.

Did you look the previous calves over from stem to stern? It's not all that unusual for us to see a white spot on the udder or scrotal area of an otherwise black registered Angus calf while we're weighing and tagging them. But just walking around the pasture, you'd never see it.

I believe Purebred is bred up, Fullblood has no "outside" blood in its pedigree dating back to the inception of the registry. Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[chippie]

I believe Purebred is bred up, Fullblood has no "outside" blood in its pedigree dating back to the inception of the registry. Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong.

That is correct.

 

[hillsdown]

You are correct fargus.

 

[randiliana]

OK, HD, here you go. Probably more than you were wondering.

First off you have 3 basic coat colors, Black which is dominant to Wild which is dominant to Red

Now all the other colors result from various genes that affect how the base color looks.

There's the various dilutors, which makes black grey and red tan. Some are dominant (Char and Simm/GV) and some are recessive (Limo). Some only affect red and not black (Chianina or Brahman)

There is the recessive spotting gene which shows up ONLY when an animal is homo and gives you spots like holstiens, Simmental and Shorthorn. Which can be anything from really colored right down to only a little white on the belly or face.

They believe that there are other spotting genes out there too, which put white on the belly, because Black Angus can sometimes have white bellies, even though you don't ever (or at least almost never) see a Black Angus calf come out spotted up like a Shorthorn.

There's roan which is roan when its Hetero and White when Homo. This one is called incompletely or co dominant

There's the Hereford spotting gene which when homo gives you the traditional Hereford look and when hetero gives you the baldy look. And brockle faces really are baldies, just with an added gene. Another one that is incompletely or co-dominant.

There's color sided, which is what makes Pinzgauer look like they do, and is also seen in Longhorns. Dominant.

There's the White Park color which when homo is a mostly white animal with colored feet and ears and when hetero looks similar to color sided. Galloway have this one too. Incompletely dominant.

There's the belt which gives you belted Galloways, and a couple other breeds. Dominant

There is Brindle, which gives you tigerstripes. Seen when you cross a red animal with a wild colored animal sometimes, say Jersey or Brahman with Hereford. This is Dominant.

There's the brockle gene which gives you spots of dark color in white areas, such as brockle faces and also the mottled leg look. Dominant

There's the blaze gene which works WITH the recessive spotting gene. This is the one that makes Simmentals look like Herefords if they have both genes. Or gives the Blaze faces you get when you cross Simmental with Angus. Dominant.

Every one of these genes is a mutation. The original color would have been similar to Tarentais or possibly buffalo. A brownish color.

 

[hillsdown]

Thank you Randi I knew that you had the answers. :banana:

There is the recessive spotting gene which shows up ONLY when an animal is homo and gives you spots like holstiens, Simmental and Shorthorn. Which can be anything from really colored right down to only a little white on the belly or face.

So that answers my question. The bull carries the spotting gene. Next time I will avoid homo blk bulls and just breed my blks to hetero. One more question, I bred him to a few reds so the calves will be blk with probably a white spot as well then too ?

I had to add your blog on genetics to my new Lt I hadn`t done that yet. I guess that would have saved me posting here if I would have just looked it up and read it first. So thanks so much again for all f your help, but I just answered my second question..

 

[randiliana]

Thank you Randi I knew that you had the answers. :banana:

There is the recessive spotting gene which shows up ONLY when an animal is homo and gives you spots like holstiens, Simmental and Shorthorn. Which can be anything from really colored right down to only a little white on the belly or face.

So that answers my question. The bull carries the spotting gene. Next time I will avoid homo blk bulls and just breed my blks to hetero. One more question, I bred him to a few reds so the calves will be blk with probably a white spot as well then too ?

I had to add your blog on genetics to my new Lt I hadn`t done that yet. I guess that would have saved me posting here if I would have just looked it up and read it first. So thanks so much again for all f your help, but I just answered my second question..

Whoops, I think we have a misunderstanding.

spotting gene which shows up ONLY when an animal is homo

Means that the spots only show up when an animal is homo for the SPOTTING gene. Not homo for the BLACK gene.
A HOMO BLACK animal is homo for the black color. S/He may or may not carry other genes. You can have a homo black animal that is spotted, or that looks like a hereford or that is grey. All the homo black means is that the animal has 2 copies of the Black gene.

In your case it sounds like you have a homo black bull that either carries the recessive spotting gene or some other gene that puts white on the belly. He will only pass this gene on 50% of the time because he is hetero for it. But he will ALWAYS pass on the BLACK gene.

Since you bred him to some reds, the calves will all be black. Whether they have any white on them will depend on BOTH parents. The sire will have to pass on his recessive gene, and so would the dam(if she actually carries the same gene) for the calves to have white on them.

I know that the odd animal in the Gelbveih breed can show up spotted. Neighbour up the road who raises Gelbveih says that there are some spotted animals in the breed. Not common, but they are out there. They have a spotted cow which had a spotted calf a few years ago.

 

[hillsdown]

So the dam had to carry the gene as well ? I culled a red Gv last fall that had a white spot on her udder so your are right it does happen . It is not just a little white on the calf either, it is a long stripe that starts at navel and moves all the way back .

 

[cowwrangler]

i have a homo blk bull with a white spot on his forehead,has thrown all black calves for the last 3 years

 

[kenny thomas]

Can the spotted gene be tested for?

 

[randiliana]

Can the spotted gene be tested for?

Not that I have heard of.

 

[kenny thomas]

Thanks Randi. I have Homo Black Simmy bulls and I do get a couple of spotted each year and it really hurts the price. A few of the cows are spotted so I guess I should expect it.

 

[Cattleman200]

You can breed any homozygous black bull to any red or black cow that is red or black pretty much all the way back in their pedigree and there can always be a chance of white on the underline. It does not mean the bull is not homozygous black or has any kind of spotting gene. I have seen it happen in hundreds of calves. Many purebred Angus and Limousin females already have white underneath. It happens in the Limousin breed sometimes even when both parents are homo black the calf can have white undrneath. Im sure it does in other breeds also. I know that TC Total is an Angus bull that many people wont use because he puts white on the underline a lot and many times in front of the navel. The white underneath doesnt mean anything other than the calf has white on it. The coat color should always come out black although the definition NALF gives us on homozygous black animals is a 99.9% that all calves will be black out of red or black non diluter animals. I suppose somewhere in history a red one has popped out.

Circle H Ranch

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Thanks Randi. I have Homo Black Simmy bulls and I do get a couple of spotted each year and it really hurts the price. A few of the cows are spotted so I guess I should expect it.

Kenny - if you get ONE calf out of your bull with spots (by spots I mean white spots on the sides of the calf - not bellie or face or legs or tail - those are all different genes) - anyway, if you get ONE calf with spots - your BULL is carrying the spotting gene AND your dam of the spotted calf. You can have a Homo Black or Homo Red bull carrying the spotting gene produce hundreds of calves WITHOUT 1 spot - "IF" he is bred to cows that do not carry the spotting gene. BOTH parents must carry AND PASS the gene if it is a recessive gene - which the SPOTTING gene is recessive.
You can have a cow covered with white (actually saw a PB Simmental that was ALL white except for black on head & butt!! and she was Homo Black, of course carrying both spotting genes). This almost white cow, bred to a non-spotting bull - never produced a calf with SPOTS, but all her solid bodied black calves CARRIED the spotting gene, so you have to be careful what you breed your herozygous spotted carrying cows to.

 

[Cattleman200]

You can have a Homo Black or Homo Red bull carrying the spotting gene produce hundreds of calves WITHOUT 1 spot
I have never heard of a homo red bull.

Circle H Ranch