Coccidia from chickens??

[Curtis36]

So my bottle calves have coccidia :x Big bummer.

They have had scours for two weeks and i figured it was coccidia cuz they were 6 weeks old when they got sick so I started treating them with the amprovine pellets right away and about 4 days ago started them on the amprolium powder(corid) in their water and milk as well.

Well they haven't gotten better so I called the vet out today.

He said that they are getting coccidia from my chickens running around. And that they will keep getting reinfected with it as long as they are, because they don't build an immunity to it. He also said to bleach and powerwash the pen they are in. He also said to watch out for my one and a half year old son who likes to come out and do chores with us everynight, because he could become infected as well. :???:

????????? It was my understanding from the things I have read lately that cattle getting coccidia from chickens is an old wives tale, and that it is actually host specific. And that eventually they would build an immunity to it. And that bleach doesn't kill the oocysts, only ammonia.

Well he was pretty insistant on it and I figured he should know what he is talking about, so I penned up the chickens for now and am going to wait to see if that helps.

What has everyone else's vet told them on the subject?

 

[snake67]

I think it is an easy fix - and you have started.

Pen the chickens or give them the chop. If you pen them make sure you clean up around them and do not cross contaminate with water, hoses, feed, buckets and the like. The penning is a start but you have to be careful about so much - even your boots will carry the stuff.

You come to our place we make you put on plastic booties to walk in the pen areas.

Cocci is to the best of my knowledge NOT host specific

We raise cattle, sheep and chickens - they all have it and they are always carrying it - and yes in my experience they can spread it from one to another.

We never bother with the pellets or powder - we always put the liquid amprol right in the drinking water - and we treat for 14 days when it comes along. In fact if it looks like it is going to be a bad problem we do not stop treating until the fecal samples come back from the lab as clean.

And the secret is fecals - if you are not doing them you are working on "I think" and "it looks like".

We do those fecals with the sheep on a monthly basis when in the pens and with cattle as required.

Not a lot of fun but you get used to doing things - and once they are grown and gone or grown and have some immunity you should be good.

Best to you

Bruce

 

[Howdyjabo]

Cocci is host specific except for between sheep and goats.

 

[Lucky_P]

Your vet is wrong.
Perhaps they need a refresher course in basic parasitology.

Most coccidia species are very host-species specific. Poultry coccidia DO NOT infect cattle - and your son is NOT at risk of infection. And, as you've discovered, the calves WILL mount an immune response and become resistant to re-infection- provided you can pull them through.
The source of infection? Cattle.

Now... there is a group of coccidia-like organisms, Cryptosporidium, which are not host-species specific, and can be transmitted readily across mammalian species - including humans.
Pressure washing may be helpful - removal of gross contamination is very important. Bleach - not effective against coccidia/Cryptosporidium oocysts, but if bacterial or viral pathogens are also in the mix, it may help inactivate those.

As always, wash your hands well after working with these calves.

 

[snake67]

Cocci is host specific except for between sheep and goats.

That is true - never had goats on the place though.

Bez

 

[snake67]

Your vet is wrong.
Perhaps they need a refresher course in basic parasitology.

Most coccidia species are very host-species specific. Poultry coccidia DO NOT infect cattle - and your son is NOT at risk of infection. And, as you've discovered, the calves WILL mount an immune response and become resistant to re-infection- provided you can pull them through.
The source of infection? Cattle.

Now... there is a group of coccidia-like organisms, Cryptosporidium, which are not host-species specific, and can be transmitted readily across mammalian species - including humans.
Pressure washing may be helpful - removal of gross contamination is very important. Bleach - not effective against coccidia/Cryptosporidium oocysts, but if bacterial or viral pathogens are also in the mix, it may help inactivate those.

As always, wash your hands well after working with these calves.

Lucky

Have been told by my own vet that poultry can infect cattle

I have no reason to doubt you, but now you well and truly have me confused.

And I might be spending money for nothing - which is not confusing me, but in fact annoying me.

As for Cryptosporidium is it possible that is what he was talking about?

Not prepared to lay blame yet - but either he told me wrong or I misunderstood.

More info please

Bez

 

[3waycross]

similar deal here last winter. Our little bulls became infected in the pasture. We have a corral with a hay ring in it where they have free choice. Last winter we had a terrible infestation of crows and magpies that would come in and clean up the grain the bulls spilled. They would then go and perch on the hayring and shyt on the hay. The vet looked at the deal and said her honest opinion was that they got it from the birds. We treated with Corrid and it went away but cost us a month of gain before it was all over with.

 

[Lucky_P]

I'm frequently dismayed - and sometimes embarassed at - stuff my professional colleagues sometimes tell their clients.

I teach parasitology to animal health tech/pre-vet students, so maybe I'm more engaged in the minor details of life cycles, host-specificity, etc., but I can guarantee you that the parasitologists who taught me in veterinary school made it very clear that chicken coccidia cannot infect cattle. Avian species coccidia pose no problem for mammals.
Plenty of online articles from reliable sources - google 'em up; some even address the host-specificity aspect, particularly with regard to poultry - 'cause it's an old falsehood that just keeps getting repeated.

Cryptosporidium is a common problem in dairy calves - but I see it in beef calves from time to time, especially if it's cold and muddy. While it is a pathogen in its own right, I look at it as an 'indicator' organism: if the calf has Crypto, it's almost certainly immunosuppressed - whether due to environmental stress, poor plane of nutrition, faulty colostrum management - or, in many cases, it has one or more other enteric pathogens present, like rota/corona viruses, BVD virus, enteropathogenic E.coli, or Salmonella. It's not at all uncommon for me to see calves with rotavirus, pathogenic E.coli, Crypto, and Strongyloides(threadworms).
Most immunocompetent humans who contract Crypto may have some diarrhea for a few days, but rarely require hospitalization. It can, however, be a potentially life-threatening - and sometimes lifelong - infection in HIV+ individual, or those on immunosuppressive drug therapy.
There have been numerous 'outbreaks' of human Cryptosporidiosis linked to contamination of municipal water supplies (Milwaukee, Wash.DC, etc.), contaminated public pools/water parks, and day-care centers. It's a tiny little organism that is resistant to chlorination of water.

 

[3waycross]

I'm frequently dismayed - and embarassed at - stuff my professional colleagues sometimes tell their clients.

I teach parasitology to animal health tech/pre-vet students, so maybe I'm more engaged in the minor details of life cycles, host-specificity, etc., but I can guarantee you that the parasitologists who taught me in veterinary school made it very clear that chicken coccidia cannot infect cattle. Avian species coccidia pose no problem for mammals.
Plenty of online articles from reliable sources - google 'em up; some even address the host-specificity aspect, particularly with regard to poultry - 'cause it's an old falsehood that just keeps getting repeated.

Cryptosporidium is a common problem in dairy calves - but I see it in beef calves from time to time, especially if it's cold and muddy. While it is a pathogen in its own right, I look at it as an 'indicator' organism: if the calf has Crypto, it's almost certainly immunosuppressed - whether due to environmental stress, poor plane of nutrition, faulty colostrum management - or, in many cases, it has one or more other enteric pathogens present, like rota/corona viruses, BVD virus, enteropathogenic E.coli, or Salmonella. It's not at all uncommon for me to see calves with rotavirus, pathogenic E.coli, Crypto, and Strongyloides(threadworms).
Most immunocompetent humans who contract Crypto may have some diarrhea for a few days, but rarely require hospitalization. It can, however, be a potentially life-threatening - and sometimes lifelong - infection in HIV+ individual, or those on immunosuppressive drug therapy.
There have been numerous 'outbreaks' of human Cryptosporidiosis linked to contamination of municipal water supplies (Milwaukee, Wash.DC, etc.), contaminated public pools/water parks, and day-care centers. It's a tiny little organism that is resistant to chlorination of water.

So your best guess......these calves were in a semiarid environment, no mud around the hay ring, over 100 acres to roam around in, fed grain in a trough that they flipped over daily so we know it never got shytty, fresh running spring water to drink at all times and no other sickness, no cattle added from other herds at all.
The only thing they had where they could have contracted it was the hayring as far as i can tell. The only variable was the massive influx of crows and magpies!
Oh and it hit them 2 months after they were weaned!

 

[Lucky_P]

3 way,
If the problem was coccidiosis, the birds were not the source. It's scientific fact that avian Eimeria species will not infect mammals.

Most cattle herds have coccidiosis. Majority of infected calves never develop clinical disease, but it will impact performance.
Have not recognized it in my herd until this fall - but lost one fall calf, and had a couple more that scoured pretty badly, but recovered with treatment.. Young calves, in this case, on dams, on good pasture -rotating daily, no mud, pond water gravity-fed to tire waterers. No noticeable disease in adult cows, weanlings, or yearlings.

Clean dry conditions help diminish infection rate and severity, but if cattle are shedding oocysts - and they can remain viable and infectious for years - others are gonna pick 'em up from forage, waterers, feedbunks, licking one another, etc.
I mostly see coccidiosis in weanlings - but have seen animals as old as 2yrs with fatal clinical disease.

Haven't seen documentation - but someone may have published it for cows - but it's a known phenomenon that pregnant ewes that were fecal-negative for coccidia oocysts will begin fecal shedding - without clinical disease - shortly before lambing. It's the parasite's way of ensuring that the next generation of hosts gets a better chance to get infected.

 

[Bigfoot]

The only intelligent thing that I could add to this conversation is-------The white stuff on chicken poop is uric acid.

 

[3waycross]

The only intelligent thing that I could add to this conversation is-------The white stuff on chicken poop is uric acid.

Well at least nobody can say that you don't know shyt! :lol2:

 

[Curtis36]

I'm frequently dismayed - and sometimes embarassed at - stuff my professional colleagues sometimes tell their clients.

I teach parasitology to animal health tech/pre-vet students, so maybe I'm more engaged in the minor details of life cycles, host-specificity, etc., but I can guarantee you that the parasitologists who taught me in veterinary school made it very clear that chicken coccidia cannot infect cattle. Avian species coccidia pose no problem for mammals.
Plenty of online articles from reliable sources - google 'em up; some even address the host-specificity aspect, particularly with regard to poultry - 'cause it's an old falsehood that just keeps getting repeated.

Cryptosporidium is a common problem in dairy calves - but I see it in beef calves from time to time, especially if it's cold and muddy. While it is a pathogen in its own right, I look at it as an 'indicator' organism: if the calf has Crypto, it's almost certainly immunosuppressed - whether due to environmental stress, poor plane of nutrition, faulty colostrum management - or, in many cases, it has one or more other enteric pathogens present, like rota/corona viruses, BVD virus, enteropathogenic E.coli, or Salmonella. It's not at all uncommon for me to see calves with rotavirus, pathogenic E.coli, Crypto, and Strongyloides(threadworms).
Most immunocompetent humans who contract Crypto may have some diarrhea for a few days, but rarely require hospitalization. It can, however, be a potentially life-threatening - and sometimes lifelong - infection in HIV+ individual, or those on immunosuppressive drug therapy.
There have been numerous 'outbreaks' of human Cryptosporidiosis linked to contamination of municipal water supplies (Milwaukee, Wash.DC, etc.), contaminated public pools/water parks, and day-care centers. It's a tiny little organism that is resistant to chlorination of water.

That's what i thought Lucky, I don't know why my vet would think this, he's pretty young so he has to to be pretty fresh out of school. There are tons of really reputable refrences on the web that pretty much says the opposite of what he told me.

When he said people could get coccidia from livestock, it started to make me really doubt his judgements. I work in a hospital lab, and with as many people that have cattle or chickens around here and how reletively common it is, you would think kids would have it all the time. But I have never even seen an order from someone's poop to get checked for coccidia, let alone hear of someone having it. I know people can get it... but it's really rare.

I'm just goona keep plugging away with the corid and keep their pen as clean as I can. And keep 'em hydrated.

 

[Lucky_P]

Curt,
There are coccidia species that infect virtually all mammalian & avian species (I don't know squat about heterotherms, they may have 'em, too.). Cystoisospora belli and C. natalensis are two species that infect humans, but I've never known of a case in the USA. More of a tropical/subtropical distribution, and, I'd guess, in areas where sewage and potable water treatment are less than adequate.
You might see Cryptosporidium in the hospital laboratory - but, likely as not, it won't be in someone from a farm background. Oocysts in fecal smear stained with a modified acid-fast stain, or we're now using a FA combo kit for Giardia/Crypto.

I dunno...maybe they were absent or asleep (I did my share of that) in class that day, and just fell into repeating the mistaken notion, but it's a common and important enough disease that I'd want to have my story straight so that I could properly advise my clients. Or, their intructor may not have been as good as mine were - I know I'm not as good as mine; I try to emulate 'em, but I'm a mere poseur in that arena.

 

[chippie]

I skimmed the thread and did not see how long you have owned the calves nor where you bought them.
Chances are they came with the parasite.

I have chickens and have never had a problem with our homebred livestock. However I have purchased calves from a sale barn that develop after I've had them a few days. I no longer buy anything from that barn.

 

[snake67]

I'm frequently dismayed - and sometimes embarassed at - stuff my professional colleagues sometimes tell their clients.

I teach parasitology to animal health tech/pre-vet students, so maybe I'm more engaged in the minor details of life cycles, host-specificity, etc., but I can guarantee you that the parasitologists who taught me in veterinary school made it very clear that chicken coccidia cannot infect cattle. Avian species coccidia pose no problem for mammals.
Plenty of online articles from reliable sources - google 'em up; some even address the host-specificity aspect, particularly with regard to poultry - 'cause it's an old falsehood that just keeps getting repeated.

Cryptosporidium is a common problem in dairy calves - but I see it in beef calves from time to time, especially if it's cold and muddy. While it is a pathogen in its own right, I look at it as an 'indicator' organism: if the calf has Crypto, it's almost certainly immunosuppressed - whether due to environmental stress, poor plane of nutrition, faulty colostrum management - or, in many cases, it has one or more other enteric pathogens present, like rota/corona viruses, BVD virus, enteropathogenic E.coli, or Salmonella. It's not at all uncommon for me to see calves with rotavirus, pathogenic E.coli, Crypto, and Strongyloides(threadworms).
Most immunocompetent humans who contract Crypto may have some diarrhea for a few days, but rarely require hospitalization. It can, however, be a potentially life-threatening - and sometimes lifelong - infection in HIV+ individual, or those on immunosuppressive drug therapy.
There have been numerous 'outbreaks' of human Cryptosporidiosis linked to contamination of municipal water supplies (Milwaukee, Wash.DC, etc.), contaminated public pools/water parks, and day-care centers. It's a tiny little organism that is resistant to chlorination of water.

Just wanted to say thanks - not to doubt you, but I have also been doing a little exploring at the Guelph University vet college and they completely back you up.

Your info is solid and I for one appreciate it - shows even old farts like me can learn a lot if they read once in a while!

Have a great week.

Bez

 

[Lucky_P]

Thanks, Bez.
I try to have things straight when I post - but will readily admit that I've been wrong, or 'behind the times' on some stuff - and folks here thankfully don't hesitate to call me on it. I appreciate it - we all have things to learn.

Vets are just like anyone else. Sometimes we don't question 'conventional wisdom' (which may not be all that wise), and just fall in step and continue to parrot the old misinformation.
Earlier this fall, I saw a news release about anaplasmosis, quoting one of my grad school mentors who explained that the infection came from deer and was transmitted by horseflies. Wrong! There's no scientific evidence that whitetail deer are involved in maintenance or transmission of anaplasmosis to cattle, and in this part of the country, ticks are by far and away, the most important vector; biting flies of minimal concern with our strains of A.marginale.

 

[skeeter swatter]

So your best guess......these calves were in a semiarid environment, no mud around the hay ring, over 100 acres to roam around in, fed grain in a trough that they flipped over daily so we know it never got shytty, fresh running spring water to drink at all times and no other sickness, no cattle added from other herds at all.
The only thing they had where they could have contracted it was the hayring as far as i can tell. The only variable was the massive influx of crows and magpies!
Oh and it hit them 2 months after they were weaned![/quote]



Could the birds spread it from a nearby carcass?

 

[mjnetex]

We have coccidia in our soil--we brought it in with dairy calves about 20 years ago. Every year I have to treat one or two calves with Sustain boluses--the youngest to get it has been about three weeks, the oldest is calves we are weaning, up to eight months (and it can cause a little bloat in the older calves, rarely). They usually get it around one or two months, I'd say. I have never had one show symptoms again after treating once--and the Sustain cures it immediately, at least it has every time. When weaning I usually put Corid in the water. I just be sure to take a good look at their backsides every couple of days, at least. We have never had any other problem--other than worms, in older animals--to cause the messy butt.
Very easy to cure, never recurs in the same animal (not for us, at least), once you get used to it it's not a big deal, just be sure to catch it quickly, you don't want it to get to the point of blood in the feces-- and of course the cleaner the corral/pasture, the better. But occasionally they will pick it up even in the cleanest of pastures, you never know!

 

[Curtis36]

Curt,
There are coccidia species that infect virtually all mammalian & avian species (I don't know squat about heterotherms, they may have 'em, too.). Cystoisospora belli and C. natalensis are two species that infect humans, but I've never known of a case in the USA. More of a tropical/subtropical distribution, and, I'd guess, in areas where sewage and potable water treatment are less than adequate.
You might see Cryptosporidium in the hospital laboratory - but, likely as not, it won't be in someone from a farm background. Oocysts in fecal smear stained with a modified acid-fast stain, or we're now using a FA combo kit for Giardia/Crypto.

I dunno...maybe they were absent or asleep (I did my share of that) in class that day, and just fell into repeating the mistaken notion, but it's a common and important enough disease that I'd want to have my story straight so that I could properly advise my clients. Or, their intructor may not have been as good as mine were - I know I'm not as good as mine; I try to emulate 'em, but I'm a mere poseur in that arena.

Thank you for all the info Lucky

We run a crypto and giardia, among other things, on basically everyone who comes in with diarrhea, on an analyzer that I can't quite remember the methodology right now... i think ELISA, can't say I've seen many positives tho.

I have another question for you, I took a fecal sample from the calves and brought it into my lab to see if I could see any of the oocysts in a wet mount. I didn't see any oocysts (which from what I have read, are only shed at certain times?), but I did see a lot of flagellated protozoan parasites that I could not identify (they were swimming all over). I asked the vet about that, and he said cattle have normal flagellated parasites and he would be more concerned if they weren't there.

Is this accurate?

P.S. I am fairly certain it is coccidia even tho I didn't see them. Because last year we had the same outbreak and the calves were the exact same age, 4 to 6 weeks. I got this years and last years calves from my dad, who also has had coccidia. I put this years calves in the same pen as they were last year(I bleached the pen, before I found out that wasn't affective) and the calves came down with it 3-4 weeks after i got them.