Clover in the pasture surpised me + scurred bull

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SRBeef

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With fertilizer prices as they are I no-till drilled some red clover into a mostly grass pasture early this spring hoping to let it fix some nitrogen rather than having to supply it from the coop. This is a very nice grass paddock but it has been giving out in the middle of summer and looking like it needed more fertilizer.

I always thought of clover as an early spring, cool weather plant. But after being away for a few days and coming back to move the girls etc I was amazed at how well the spring planted clover is coming through now that the other grasses are sort of going into the summer doldrums. One of the other posts here somewhere had a link to YouTube videos of a fellow in Texas who was advocating planting clover there.

Here are a couple photos from this afternoon. You can see where I drilled it and how the grass is sort of lagging in between while the clover is thriving even in the heat of August (in WI). It hasn't been near as hot as elsewhere but still grass is slowing.

If this is what red clover can typically do over the summer I am excited. Lots of good forage when I need it. I restricted them to a small section of the paddock and will see how much we can get out of it. Is there any danger of bloat from too much clover as there is from alfalfa?

Also here are a couple pictures of the scurred bull I posted questions about earlier. I am becoming more satisfied with him. He is fitting in to the herd, seems to have a good attitude (for a bull) comes with the others, not bellowing, etc but also seems to be getting his job done with the girls. Question is when does a yearling bull like this fill out in the butt? I would just like to see a little more rear quarter on him. Is that likely to come later? He is still only about 15 months old.

When do bulls reach their full profile? Is he likely to fill out in the rear?

Here are the photos:
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The last bull picture - he is 15 months old. Is he likely to fill out in the rear some more or is what you see what you get? I've never had a yearling bull before.

 
Pretty good looking. He won't start filling out until probably after his 2nd breeding season...so about 28 months of age. Although every bull is different. :cowboy:
 
The red clover may start to peter out if you have a long spell of 90 degree days with no rain. OUrs usually starts to start slowing down in middle to late august. BTW, I'm assuming the clover was inoculated, if not it won;t be fixing much nitorgen.
Bloat and clover, a really perplexing subject. Clover is credited by the experts with causing bloat in cattle. Our cows are used to clover and when turned into a field with a lot of clover they just graze it like they would grass, they don;t make an issue out of over eating it. Some of our pastures are 75% and maybe more red clover and a little wild white dutch clover. They will sometimes appear full and gassy but not have any problems. We have one field that is almost solid red clover, there is some grass but you would be hard pressed to find it through the clover, some of which was 3 foot tall. For a couple of months each year we board cows for the vet. I was leery of putting my cows in that field so I asked the vet if he minded if we ran his there this summer. Mind, he was tickled to death. I was concerned about bloat but he wasn;t, and his cows haven't seen any clover since last summer when they were here. I've kept a close eye on them and now after a month and a half they;ve made a dent in the clover but it hasn;t affected them other then to put a lot of condition on them.
If you're really concerned about the possibilities there are blocks you can put out that will prevent bloat, I have a half dozen of them sitting in the feed room that have never been unwrapped and they've been there for close to 10 years.
 
Thanks Aaron & Dun. Yes the clover was innoculated in the drill box. There is enough natural clover in most fields here where the bacteria or whatever that makes the N nodes should also be in the soil. This field for some reason had a lot less clover than some others - almost none. We also spread a fair amount of lime last summer to get the pH up to where clover likes it.

As far as bloat - this field is now maybe 60-70% clover as you can see. From your experience Dun I will assume bloat is not a problem here. I appreciate the information.

Aaron I'm glad to hear he has a year to go to fill out. Even though I only plan on keeping him for this one or maybe two breeding seasons at least the genetics will be there.

I was reading something the other night that pointed out that a cow with poor genetics produces only one "bad" calf. But a bull has his genetics in ALL of your calves... Thanks again.
 
SRBeef":idfhy012 said:
As far as bloat - this field is now maybe 60-70% clover as you can see. From your experience Dun I will assume bloat is not a problem here. I appreciate the information.

I'm sure there is some risk or it wouldn;t be brought up as often as it is. We just have never seen it. Just practice benign neglect and all should be fine.
 
Aaron I'm glad to hear he has a year to go to fill out. Even though I only plan on keeping him for this one or maybe two breeding seasons at least the genetics will be there.

I don't want to be the negative one here and I agree the bull will fill out some more and look better, but he will never be anything but a light muscled bull.
 
I'm assuming the clover was inoculated, if not it won;t be fixing much nitorgen.

Why is that? I thought the inoculation is just to get the clover started untill it can fix it's own nitrogen?
 
KNERSIE":19unyn36 said:
I'm assuming the clover was inoculated, if not it won;t be fixing much nitorgen.

Why is that? I thought the inoculation is just to get the clover started untill it can fix it's own nitrogen?
The inoculation of Rhizobia is like planting another seed. Once in the ground it grows. It must be present throughout the life of the clover in order for continuous nitrogen fixation to take place. The rhizobia is what gives the legume the ability to fix nitrogen. Most of the nitrogen is stored in the leaf. Grazing cattle puts the N back into the soil via manure. Removing the clover as hay has very little benefit to the soil.

Here is a good site.
http://www.cahe.nmsu.edu/pubs/_a/a-129.pdf
 
Aaron":1hd5h4uc said:
Pretty good looking. He won't start filling out until probably after his 2nd breeding season...so about 28 months of age. Although every bull is different. :cowboy:

Just curious. What good is it to have a bull that doesn't fill out until he is 28 months?

Since most feedlot cattle are harvested well before that, shouldn't he want a calf that shows his genetic and phenotypic potential much earlier?
 
MikeC":11suidp5 said:
Aaron":11suidp5 said:
Pretty good looking. He won't start filling out until probably after his 2nd breeding season...so about 28 months of age. Although every bull is different. :cowboy:

Just curious. What good is it to have a bull that doesn't fill out until he is 28 months?

Since most feedlot cattle are harvested well before that, shouldn't he want a calf that shows his genetic and phenotypic potential much earlier?

I agree with Mike (surely I didn't just say that?! :shock: ) a bull needs to look good and be filled out before he is a year old if he is going to be a herd improver. Actually he must show that potential throughout his life starting at a very young age.
 
First of all I want to thank you for your replies. One thing about this forum is that it is a lot less expensive to learn here than by making all of the mistakes myself.

Second of all - please do not hesitate to reply with your honest opinion. Do not worry about hurting my feelings. I've been married to the same woman for 37 years and we have 8 kids so I can take it. However I am new to cattle and would like to learn as much as possible without repeating all the newcomer mistakes. I can't learn if you experienced folks tiptoe around the truth!

As far as the bull goes, I can understand the points you folks make on him.

However my #1 criteria for choosing a bull is calving ease. I travel a lot and just can't count on being here when at calving time. These girls have to calve on their own or they are going to cull themselves. I have some good neighbors who keep an eye on them when I can't but realistically these cows have to calve on their own. This bull has great calving ease numbers and genetics.

#2 criteria for a bull is his disposition. Everybody here is in tight quarters in rotational grazing and I don't want a bull with an attitude. I know and practice not turning my back on him. I'm in this to make money but in general this also needs to be fun for me and the cattle. Bulls with a bad attitude are not fun.

#3 there is no way I can go AI and I also want a bull who is from a lineup raised to do well on grass.

#4 there is no way I can spend high $$ on a bull with my herd size. This was a reasonably priced registered bull. I hope to be able to get most or all of my money out of him when sold so I can buy another. Maybe can spend a bit more next season if I can roll them at a fair price.

I would also like a bull with good conformation and maybe could have found a better one. But as you see I am asking for a lot here. We'll see how his calves come out.

Thank you for the kind words above about their care. Here is another picture showing them in the clover yesterday with the RH end one being an April calf now a steer for about 3 weeks. This steer 08-20 was born in April and is averaging about 3.2 pounds gain per day. The 2 BWF yearling heifers will be processed this fall.

The other pictured I just snapped from the tractor while dragging the adjacent pasture they just left. The cow on the right is one of my favorites. These BWF steer calves were bred to a friends Angus bull last summer and are also April calves with ADG over 3 lb. I was trying to see if I wanted to go with an Angus or Hereford bull. I've decided to go all Hereford for my situation.

3way I was not aware that there was such a thing as a "bloat block" and yes I'll pick up a couple asap. Where should I put them for best effect: in the pasture or near the waterer (in the distance by the guard rail)?

Thanks again.

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I place licks close to the watersource where I know they will visit a few times a day. Over here you can also get a Bloatguard bolus that works very well especially if you have to graze alfalfa.

Your cattle are in top shape and the cows seems to be doing their jobs well for you, you just need more bull power.

It is very possible to get both muscle and calving ease in the same package.
 
Your local feed store or farm supply store should have the bloat blocks. just put it in the pasture where they can find it. near the water is fine. if you are rotating put one in each pasture. For the record you have some nice cows even if the bull is a little under par. I'm curious why you can't AI and then let your bull do cleanup.
 
Bloat can be a very big problem here in Texas when we get clover..which is going to be early early spring. But I'm thinking it's probably more of a concern here because the cows haven't been grazing on lush pasture when it comes up here, so they gorge themselves on it.

I think you're doing a fine job with your cows and your pasture improvements! Nice looking calves on the cows... looks like they are big enough to be weaned.
 
JHH":3tykt08j said:
Good looking bull. What do some of the calves look like? Looks like a well taken care of bunch of cows and pasture.JHH

Here are some pictures of calves I took this evening. 20-08 weighed 392 lb at 104 days 41-08 weighed 301 at 92 days here they are probably 460 and 370. 3 rd pic is a group of calves chowing down after the move this evening.

For Bulllady- thank you for your kind words. The reason I don't see AI as a possibility is that I travel a lot and don't see how I could catch them in heat or administer the sync etc. Just seems to complex for me.

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Last post. On the original topic, clover interseeded into grass, I moved them again this evening and was amazed at how they chowed down on that clover. I also see a place where I left an unseeded strip when I ran the drill this past spring. I didn't use the marker because I didn't want to tear things up any more than necessary. Note how the cattle graze the clover but no one is in the grass strip between the clover passes. They love this stuff. Nice to have something which will come on this time of year. I hope it comes back again - they really ate yesterdays strip down as you can see. Thanks again everyone.

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TheBullLady":2zm79u74 said:
... looks like they are big enough to be weaned.

I was planning to wean them in October. Is there a reason to wean them now? Cows look like they have enough milk. Would I be just trading less forage consumption by the cow for more forage consumption by the calves?

I had one cow whose calf must have somehow ducked under an electric slinky gate at a low spot and was in the wrong pasture. When I checked them the cow was just bawling like crazy and the calf (on the other side of the fence) was too. I'm not sure I'm ready for that yet unless there is a good reason.

Should I wean them now?
 

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