They have figured out why it hasn't been working and now it's only a matter of time before somebody will have the first herd of clones.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 184310.htm
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 184310.htm
Cloned Cattle
- Thread starter JWBrahman
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sim.-ang.king
Well-known member
The cow-calf producer better go back to school on feeding and feedlotting cattle, because that will be where all the jobs, and money goes with these clones.
But i'm sure people won't want cloned meat, since they think GE plants are some how deadly. Can't see them wanting a cloned steak to bad.
Stupid fears what it doesn't know...
But i'm sure people won't want cloned meat, since they think GE plants are some how deadly. Can't see them wanting a cloned steak to bad.
Stupid fears what it doesn't know...
sim.-ang.king":2zsdsi8g said:
Most of our fruits and vegetables come from clones, there may be less resistance to cloned beef than one might assume.
Cow/calf has been moving in that direction for a while. Feeders are already buying the genetics they want first. Probably a good idea for more people to figure out how to get the highest output out of their soil with the lowest input. If we all have the same calves the guy who timed his calving to get maximum potential out of his pasture wins.
I'm not sure how I feel about this. I think the gene pool should be smaller and if everybody just cloned cattle over and over, that would sure do it. There are so many possible genetic matches in a single mating that I don't know if the "best ones" could ever be found to clone. Then aren't we just accepting what we have today as the best it can be?
If thats right, then thats a lot different from the breeding ideology of today, where we try to correct cattle by breeding cows who are weak milkers to bulls who are known to be a milk adder, or by using EPDs etc. Its irony to me is the cloning presents some of the same arguments that I have for linebreeding, of which I am a proponent.
What about the cost though? I can leave a bull in my pasture for 8 years if he is good enough to breed and have a very tight bred group of cattle assuming he has bred his daughters and granddaughters. The good ones keep producing more and the not so good ones become beef, which is the point anyway.Thats relatively cheap to the bottom line, here anyway. How much do we spend on cloning in a year or 5 year stretch to keep the same cattle?
Science just might make it economically something of a problem. I have experienced this with the row crop sector of my farm. Before round-up ready and in its early days, seed cost were a reasonable part of the bottom line. Now there is a seed cost which is reasonable, and a tech fee that is 5 times the cost of the seed. Add that to the fact that I cant save my best seed back anymore like Grandpa did, and now Im forced to buy new seed with tech fees every single year. It is becoming the common place that the tech fees gobble up what used to be my profit, thus making it worthless to even try.
Some science is good, but its hard to beat what the good Lord put into place. Too much science might leave a lot of would be cattlemen and women without a job. Seems to me what cost too much for the typical farmer, might be an attraction for a large company with the cash flow. It can happen quick too, Round up ready technology came out in the 90s. We could be one generation away from family farms and ranches, to working for the conglomerate that bought up the science, the rights to the gene pool we used to use, and the land we used to own for $10/hour.
Just my initial thoughts, but I have never really pondered cloning a whole lot.Is there a use for this I'm not seeing?
Cotton1
If thats right, then thats a lot different from the breeding ideology of today, where we try to correct cattle by breeding cows who are weak milkers to bulls who are known to be a milk adder, or by using EPDs etc. Its irony to me is the cloning presents some of the same arguments that I have for linebreeding, of which I am a proponent.
What about the cost though? I can leave a bull in my pasture for 8 years if he is good enough to breed and have a very tight bred group of cattle assuming he has bred his daughters and granddaughters. The good ones keep producing more and the not so good ones become beef, which is the point anyway.Thats relatively cheap to the bottom line, here anyway. How much do we spend on cloning in a year or 5 year stretch to keep the same cattle?
Science just might make it economically something of a problem. I have experienced this with the row crop sector of my farm. Before round-up ready and in its early days, seed cost were a reasonable part of the bottom line. Now there is a seed cost which is reasonable, and a tech fee that is 5 times the cost of the seed. Add that to the fact that I cant save my best seed back anymore like Grandpa did, and now Im forced to buy new seed with tech fees every single year. It is becoming the common place that the tech fees gobble up what used to be my profit, thus making it worthless to even try.
Some science is good, but its hard to beat what the good Lord put into place. Too much science might leave a lot of would be cattlemen and women without a job. Seems to me what cost too much for the typical farmer, might be an attraction for a large company with the cash flow. It can happen quick too, Round up ready technology came out in the 90s. We could be one generation away from family farms and ranches, to working for the conglomerate that bought up the science, the rights to the gene pool we used to use, and the land we used to own for $10/hour.
Just my initial thoughts, but I have never really pondered cloning a whole lot.Is there a use for this I'm not seeing?
Cotton1
Cotton1, the added technology will always make the embryo transfer of a clone more expensive than sticking a bull in the pasture. However, we are on the cusp of seeing it happen and becoming a segment of the cattle industry.
Experience tells us that cloning will be oversold, not live up to expectations, and will ruin a few folks along the way. But look ahead ten to twenty years when the process is perfected and then it will be as big of a game changer as certified angus beef.
Experience tells us that cloning will be oversold, not live up to expectations, and will ruin a few folks along the way. But look ahead ten to twenty years when the process is perfected and then it will be as big of a game changer as certified angus beef.
JWBrahman-Do you think cloning will be on scale with say AI today compared to maybe 1970, or ET? If it does become as big of a deal as CAB there is the conditions for my initial thoughts, when the typical farm may become a big business ran by big business folks with cash, and not folks that know or understand cattle.
The ability to own and operate a small farm for a living is diminishing. The cattle business is about the only one left in my neck of the woods where a person can do it and make some profit on smaller acreage. I hope that doesnt change, like I fear it will. Instead of everybody in the community having some cows, then it becomes the big company has all the cows. I saw this with the chicken industry in my area. Now the "integrator" and the local Farm Credit have a huge amount of control over the local farming community. An example would be getting out of debt. I cant tell you how many chicken producers work and work to pay off their farm, only to be informed of the upgrades that are going to be required to their chicken houses or they cant get any more biddies. That results in the farmer going down to the bank they just paid off and ask for how many more hundred thousand and 10 more years of debt. Or they can quit and look for a job somewhere else, like driving a feed truck or working in the hatchery etc.
Its about money and control for sure. I wonder who funded the research to develop cloning into a working process? I would venture a big money group looking to make more big money, and some help from big brother.
Its amazing what kids learn around the farm in the area of basic life. You know procreation, and the miracle of birth etc. What of our posterity if they learn you don't need a bull to make cows pregnant for calfs, you just get them cloned over at the lab? Makes me wonder if this "science" has been developed and directed to help change the way people think. Depending on GOD and nature, or depending on the lab.
I hope that cloning cost so much that most cant or wont do it, but that is also my bigger fear, that only the big money can do it. Then the next thing you know if you don't do it, you cant keep playing. Last I heard it was like 15-20K per clone, definately costly. Too much for me anyhow.
So my original question here: Where do you all think clonings place will be in the industry in say 10-20 years? Im thinking it may be like ET today which is mostly in the Registered sector. Could cloning get into the commercial sector?
Cotton1
The ability to own and operate a small farm for a living is diminishing. The cattle business is about the only one left in my neck of the woods where a person can do it and make some profit on smaller acreage. I hope that doesnt change, like I fear it will. Instead of everybody in the community having some cows, then it becomes the big company has all the cows. I saw this with the chicken industry in my area. Now the "integrator" and the local Farm Credit have a huge amount of control over the local farming community. An example would be getting out of debt. I cant tell you how many chicken producers work and work to pay off their farm, only to be informed of the upgrades that are going to be required to their chicken houses or they cant get any more biddies. That results in the farmer going down to the bank they just paid off and ask for how many more hundred thousand and 10 more years of debt. Or they can quit and look for a job somewhere else, like driving a feed truck or working in the hatchery etc.
Its about money and control for sure. I wonder who funded the research to develop cloning into a working process? I would venture a big money group looking to make more big money, and some help from big brother.
Its amazing what kids learn around the farm in the area of basic life. You know procreation, and the miracle of birth etc. What of our posterity if they learn you don't need a bull to make cows pregnant for calfs, you just get them cloned over at the lab? Makes me wonder if this "science" has been developed and directed to help change the way people think. Depending on GOD and nature, or depending on the lab.
I hope that cloning cost so much that most cant or wont do it, but that is also my bigger fear, that only the big money can do it. Then the next thing you know if you don't do it, you cant keep playing. Last I heard it was like 15-20K per clone, definately costly. Too much for me anyhow.
So my original question here: Where do you all think clonings place will be in the industry in say 10-20 years? Im thinking it may be like ET today which is mostly in the Registered sector. Could cloning get into the commercial sector?
Cotton1
Cucumber35
Well-known member
So will this be considered GMO beef???
Do we really need clones of the best bulls? I can get straws of semen on some pretty. nice bulls for $12-40.
Edited to add:
I can think of some bulls (that shall remain nameless), that were considered "ideal" for their time. Their time has passed. Won't the genetics we cherish in 2016 fall to the wayside?
Edited to add:
I can think of some bulls (that shall remain nameless), that were considered "ideal" for their time. Their time has passed. Won't the genetics we cherish in 2016 fall to the wayside?
Cotton I do think cloning will be as widespread as other means of artificial reproduction.
In the dairy sector I can see everyone having the clones from a handful of epic milkers.
We already have cloned bulls out there on Bovine Elite. Karu Manso 800 is a cloned Brahman bull.
But cloned bulls will be an afterthought if everyone can get the clones from steers with the highest yield and grade. There will be a time when a clone calf with a DNA coded eartag will bring $50-$100 more than a calf from an AI bull. When that happens the cow calf producer will have some tough decisions to make.
In the dairy sector I can see everyone having the clones from a handful of epic milkers.
We already have cloned bulls out there on Bovine Elite. Karu Manso 800 is a cloned Brahman bull.
But cloned bulls will be an afterthought if everyone can get the clones from steers with the highest yield and grade. There will be a time when a clone calf with a DNA coded eartag will bring $50-$100 more than a calf from an AI bull. When that happens the cow calf producer will have some tough decisions to make.
Maybe not now Dun, but what if they get the cost down enough to where the extra cost pays for itself? I just threw out those numbers as a future break even dollar amount.
The cattle futures guys would love it. Each embryo bought and sold ten times before it ever hits the packer. We get to buy their embryos just like corn seed. With a contract promising to sell it back only to whoever you bought it from and a huge penalty if you use those genetics in your own herd.
The cattle futures guys would love it. Each embryo bought and sold ten times before it ever hits the packer. We get to buy their embryos just like corn seed. With a contract promising to sell it back only to whoever you bought it from and a huge penalty if you use those genetics in your own herd.
tmarchant87
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My way of thinking may be wrong but isn't the point to select genetics to improve the cowherd not just to replicate what we already have. Cloned cattle will offer uniformity and expected performance, but it will not offer improvement on what you currently have available. I would much rather improve than replicate, whether it be through line breeding or crossbreeding.
True Grit Farms
Well-known member
tmarchant87":110fzuqm said:
That's my thoughts also. And to keep a productive - successful business you need to keep up with technology or get left behind.
Stocker Steve
Well-known member
cotton1":36frrvgo said:
My seed sales guy assured me that when his marketers back calculated their seed price they would leave me $50 an acre of income to keep me encouraged. :nod: Have you priced going back to non GMO seed?
The way I see it the push to clone cattle is just another step to control prices so they screw the producers and reward the packers. The price of cattle futures and the cattle themselves can be manipulated by knowing the age of all the clones sold in a year.
Stocker Steve- I actually was interested in non GMO about 3 years ago. We were battling round up resistance in Almaranth and I had to go back to tillage to incorporate some yellows in front of cotton and beans. The prices are much better on non GMO as far as seed, but you also have to count the cost of disc, bearings, plow sweeps, extra fuel etc. Not to mention time over the acres.
I found cotton seed in Tenn(I think) for around $100/bag as apposed to $600 for GMO. Other than that, I almost couldn't find any corn or beans that would fit my growing season. I use a 100 day plus corn, and group 6-7 bean here.
I think you nailed it, the bean counters have decided what our efforts will be worth it seems. Sometimes I wish I had gotten $50/acre. I'm almost out of it now though, I have given up leased land every year for the last 3 years. Whats left isnt hardly worth bothering with. Thinking of going to a oats/rye grass fall planting, hay that in the spring and no till beans behind that type rotation. That way the fertilizer is on the hay that I might can turn in to beef, then the beans will get about 2 trips with the sprayer and a prayer.
I'm pretty sure folks on CT think I'm crazy already, so I was glad to see you understood my point on that. I really, really, really don't want to think that cloning will be a big deal in the cattle business. In conversation with a fellow breeder about it, he says if cloning becomes cheap enough to use mainstream it will be a failure and in about 4 years the clones would be recip cows. If it really is something to be a rich mans deal to make those fake bids at the registered sales even higher, my friend might be right.
The same guy also said if it becomes the new normal to make calfs, he will get out and go fishing. I can see that end coming. Heck in my area, many guys still wont even buy a registered bull , not to mention a ET. If you gotta clone to stay in it, I foresee a lot of pine trees being planted in old cow pastures around here.(Happened to row crop land 30 years ago)
By the way, when I asked my local seed dealers about the non GMO seed, they all told me I couldn't get it. They don't make those variety's anymore, etc.
Cotton1
I found cotton seed in Tenn(I think) for around $100/bag as apposed to $600 for GMO. Other than that, I almost couldn't find any corn or beans that would fit my growing season. I use a 100 day plus corn, and group 6-7 bean here.
I think you nailed it, the bean counters have decided what our efforts will be worth it seems. Sometimes I wish I had gotten $50/acre. I'm almost out of it now though, I have given up leased land every year for the last 3 years. Whats left isnt hardly worth bothering with. Thinking of going to a oats/rye grass fall planting, hay that in the spring and no till beans behind that type rotation. That way the fertilizer is on the hay that I might can turn in to beef, then the beans will get about 2 trips with the sprayer and a prayer.
I'm pretty sure folks on CT think I'm crazy already, so I was glad to see you understood my point on that. I really, really, really don't want to think that cloning will be a big deal in the cattle business. In conversation with a fellow breeder about it, he says if cloning becomes cheap enough to use mainstream it will be a failure and in about 4 years the clones would be recip cows. If it really is something to be a rich mans deal to make those fake bids at the registered sales even higher, my friend might be right.
The same guy also said if it becomes the new normal to make calfs, he will get out and go fishing. I can see that end coming. Heck in my area, many guys still wont even buy a registered bull , not to mention a ET. If you gotta clone to stay in it, I foresee a lot of pine trees being planted in old cow pastures around here.(Happened to row crop land 30 years ago)
By the way, when I asked my local seed dealers about the non GMO seed, they all told me I couldn't get it. They don't make those variety's anymore, etc.
Cotton1
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