CIDRs in the Cows

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J+ Cattle

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J+ keep us updated as I will. Glad to answer any questions I can. We have been doing this for the past 11 years or so and still learn more each time. We use a AI rep that used to be an Extension Rep in our area. I promise if you keep looking to better your herd and not give up on this process of AI you will be pleased with the results. I believe there's no better way for a little guy to use big $ studs than to AI. We couldn't afford to buy the bulls whose semen we use.
This is the first time trying AI, I haven’t had any training on the procedure so I have an experienced person doing it for me. He did use lubricant when inserting the CIDRs. I’m hoping for some good heifers from these matings to improve the herd. My goal is to get to a top notch purebred Angus herd.

I will AI breed once and then wait the 10 days then use the cleanup bull for 60 days. When I preg check any opens will need to go find a new home.
 

J+ Cattle

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Glad to answer any questions I can.
WB I‘m very likely to have more questions so I appreciate that.
I know that you and @GoWyo gave me some good recommendations for Angus sires to use but it didn’t work out to use them this time. I don’t have a tank to store any straws and had to use what I could get from my AI technician, but I haven’t forgotten about them and will try to use them next time.
 
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WB Angus

WB Angus

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This is the first time trying AI, I haven’t had any training on the procedure so I have an experienced person doing it for me. He did use lubricant when inserting the CIDRs. I’m hoping for some good heifers from these matings to improve the herd. My goal is to get to a top notch purebred Angus herd.

I will AI breed once and then wait the 10 days then use the cleanup bull for 60 days. When I preg check any opens will need to go find a new home.
J+ the hardest part is the waiting game lol. No I think in general you will be very happy. I have went through an AI course but we still have our AI rep and technician do it. Hes just so much more efficient and I have more confidence in him. It works well for us that he is an ABS rep so we order our straws from him and he keeps them in his tank. We order them in Aug or early Sept and breed late November. Thats one reason that ABS special makes a big part of our decision process. There are so many good studs out there that if you stick with the traits you are looking for you will notice your herd moving that direction in time. I do recommend high accuracy proven bulls though as the EPDs are updated weekly and can change drastically in some of the younger unproven studs. Especially once real time data starts getting turned in on them. Like I mentioned the hard part is the wait. Like you we breed at the end Nov and typically start seeing calves the last week of August or 1st week of Sept. Then its a few months of watching them grow to really start seeing if your selection is paying off. For a small operation like us its the best way to use some of the top bulls in the breed. There is no way we could afford to purchase the bulls we use. And we have ended up with some nice sons of these bulls that we either retain for use in clean up or we sell. Each year more and more people can or stop by looking for a bull. We are part of a program here in MO called the "Show Me Select" its a heifer development program put on by the University of Missouri. They have a series of guidelines we producers must follow then they put on i think 7 sales across the state. The sales are put on in the spring and in the fall and are made up of different breeds of commercial and registered stock. You put more effort into producing but we find that the reward is better and we enjoy it too. I think the last couple of years the sale we go to has averaged around $2100-2200 a head. Most of these heifers will be AI bred. Gives those looking for replacements a good opportunity to get quality stock into their herd. And gives us producers a way to market for a better price.
 
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WB Angus

WB Angus

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From what I've been told you should be using lubricant. The reason is the lubricant stops any irritation and if the lining of the vagina becomes irritated it will not absord hormone until the inflamation goes away. The lubricant also helps transfer the hormone from the cidr. Similar story putting the cidr in if the vulva is covered in manure.
I'm sure lubricant is a great way and more "foolproof" for lack of better words. One picture I did not take nor did I mention is that I keep a roll of paper towels near and wipe every vulva clean whether it appears dirty or not. Good point you made. Definitely need to remove any manure or other debris. As far as lube goes we find the chlorhexidine solution works for a pretty good lubricant. I rinse the CIDR applicator in one bucket immediately after use. I then load the applicator with a CIDR and put it in the second bucket of solution and give it a good swirl right before application. Never have had a problem with this process. Our tech does it the same way and does thousands each year. These pictures are of cows. We did heifers a couple weeks back and I will use a little lube on some of them if the applicator doesn't want to start in with ease. As I mentioned to Ken I don't force anything so if it doesn't start in with ease as most of the time it does I will add a little lubricant.
 
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wbvs58

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J+ the hardest part is the waiting game lol. No I think in general you will be very happy. I have went through an AI course but we still have our AI rep and technician do it. Hes just so much more efficient and I have more confidence in him. It works well for us that he is an ABS rep so we order our straws from him and he keeps them in his tank. We order them in Aug or early Sept and breed late November. Thats one reason that ABS special makes a big part of our decision process. There are so many good studs out there that if you stick with the traits you are looking for you will notice your herd moving that direction in time. I do recommend high accuracy proven bulls though as the EPDs are updated weekly and can change drastically in some of the younger unproven studs. Especially once real time data starts getting turned in on them. Like I mentioned the hard part is the wait. Like you we breed at the end Nov and typically start seeing calves the last week of August or 1st week of Sept. Then its a few months of watching them grow to really start seeing if your selection is paying off. For a small operation like us its the best way to use some of the top bulls in the breed. There is no way we could afford to purchase the bulls we use. And we have ended up with some nice sons of these bulls that we either retain for use in clean up or we sell. Each year more and more people can or stop by looking for a bull. We are part of a program here in MO called the "Show Me Select" its a heifer development program put on by the University of Missouri. They have a series of guidelines we producers must follow then they put on i think 7 sales across the state. The sales are put on in the spring and in the fall and are made up of different breeds of commercial and registered stock. You put more effort into producing but we find that the reward is better and we enjoy it too. I think the last couple of years the sale we go to has averaged around $2100-2200 a head. Most of these heifers will be AI bred. Gives those looking for replacements a good opportunity to get quality stock into their herd. And gives us producers a way to market for a better price.
WB, do you try doing any yourself? If not, it would be a shame to let what you learnt go to waste. Putting patches on those heifers and try any rebreeds yourself would be the way to go. For most people it takes time to develop the skill and by doing a few like that with no pressure on you gradually builds your confidence and ability.

Ken
 
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WB Angus

WB Angus

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WB, do you try doing any yourself? If not, it would be a shame to let what you learnt go to waste. Putting patches on those heifers and try any rebreeds yourself would be the way to go. For most people it takes time to develop the skill and by doing a few like that with no pressure on you gradually builds your confidence and ability.

Ken
I have done some myself and surprisingly to me I have a pretty good conception rate. I've bred a few early do to observing standing heat. We usually only buy a certain amount of straws each year and use them all at the set date for fixed time breeding. So they only get one chance then its up to the bull.
 

Redgully

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I'm sure lubricant is a great way and more "foolproof" for lack of better words. One picture I did not take nor did I mention is that I keep a roll of paper towels near and wipe every vulva clean whether it appears dirty or not. Good point you made. Definitely need to remove any manure or other debris. As far as lube goes we find the chlorhexidine solution works for a pretty good lubricant. I rinse the CIDR applicator in one bucket immediately after use. I then load the applicator with a CIDR and put it in the second bucket of solution and give it a good swirl right before application. Never have had a problem with this process. Our tech does it the same way and does thousands each year. These pictures are of cows. We did heifers a couple weeks back and I will use a little lube on some of them if the applicator doesn't want to start in with ease. As I mentioned to Ken I don't force anything so if it doesn't start in with ease as most of the time it does I will add a little lubricant.
You seems to have a good system and as they say, if it ain't broke don't fix it. I wasn't suggesting you put cidrs in without cleaning cows, just mentioned it as it was ringing in my ears from my vet yelling at one of his students.
 
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WB Angus

WB Angus

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You seems to have a good system and as they say, if it ain't broke don't fix it. I wasn't suggesting you put cidrs in without cleaning cows, just mentioned it as it was ringing in my ears from my vet yelling at one of his students.
I'm glad you brought up the point about cleaning the cows I had forgotten to mention it. All input is appreciated, we all learn from one another.
 

Jeanne - Simme Valley

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Vet taught us to put cidr in upside down (tail and open up) then turn tail down after it is in place. He claims the open edges can be more unpleasant pointed down.
Also, wanted to mention. You said something about wanting to breed to good Angus bulls because your goal was a good purebred Angus herd. Do you realize you can never have PB Angus without purchasing them? There is no building up program. Maybe you just want "mostly" Angus breeding - but not registered?
 

J+ Cattle

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Also, wanted to mention. You said something about wanting to breed to good Angus bulls because your goal was a good purebred Angus herd. Do you realize you can never have PB Angus without purchasing them? There is no building up program. Maybe you just want "mostly" Angus breeding - but not registered?
Yes, I understand there is no breeding up program to become registered with the Angus breed and that's fine with me. I'm a commercial cow/calf operator and don't want to fool with the registrations. I'm just trying to breed up to get really good quality cows. I've been using registered Angus bulls for close to 20 years so my herd is already "mostly" Angus. For me I would consider them to be purebred after about 5 generations which would give you a high 90% Angus cow. I'm at 74% Angus right now according to the Zoetis DNA testing that I've done.
 

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Halide= white light=more bugs. Sodium= yellow light= less bugs. But you will hate the yellow tinge to the light. LED is the only way to go. The initial cost may be more, but the light at 3,500 or 4,000 Kelvins will do you right, home or yard, go LED. Plus, 25? Yrs of not changing a light bulb.
 

Redgully

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Halide= white light=more bugs. Sodium= yellow light= less bugs. But you will hate the yellow tinge to the light. LED is the only way to go. The initial cost may be more, but the light at 3,500 or 4,000 Kelvins will do you right, home or yard, go LED. Plus, 25? Yrs of not changing a light bulb.
We've been going led in our sheds and they are the best, instant light, bright, don't cast bad shadows and use hardly any power. One shed we used for packing fruit was drawing 2kw of electricity just in lighting and now brighter and down to 500watts. The first ones a few years back were expensive but they are quite cheap now and getting better all the time.
 

moses388

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I've bred a few early do to observing standing heat.
Are you saying if you observe a cow in standing heat you will take her off a timed AI program? What is the conception rate for cows removed from the timed AI program? Just curious because I've been told all cows should stay on the program after being enrolled.
 
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WB Angus

WB Angus

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Are you saying if you observe a cow in standing heat you will take her off a timed AI program? What is the conception rate for cows removed from the timed AI program? Just curious because I've been told all cows should stay on the program after being enrolled.
I have only done it a couple times on some heifers I was retaining for myself. I did it more to see if I learned anything from the course I took. We stick with the fixed time protocol. Its been a couple years since I have done that. I work full-time so don't get to observe the heats a majority of the time anymore. So fixed time it is, they all get one chance with a straw and the clean up bulls take care of any that don't take to that straw. We run about a 65-70% conception rate typically. Sometimes a little better.
 

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The CIDR and synch program is for bringing the cows into heat as close together as possible. So that they can be bred all at the same time without heat detection and get as many as possible bred. The hormones initiate the heat cycle, but will not be at the same time on 100% of the cows. If you can also do heat detection and observe standing heat, you should forget the timed AI and breed that cow based on observed heat. Because you observed that her heat cycle is not 100% synch'd with the other cows. There is a window of time for breeding after first standing heat - whether it is observed or not. If you do no heat detection, your success is based on the cow's AI time falling into that window after first standing heat. The timed AI time is based on statistics of other cows coming into heat on that protocol, usually less than 100% of them fit that window. Observed heat is real and triggers the window to breed. Timed AI is based on the best window if they are all bred at the same time. I heat check and breed on observed heat and then time breed non-responders. I think that method will get some of those 30% or so that do not take on timed AI only.
 

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